Drone Research Team

Drones Research Team - Research => Photo analysis => Topic started by: elevenaugust on June 12, 2008, 04:57:27 PM

Title: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: elevenaugust on June 12, 2008, 04:57:27 PM
From 10538

BTW Spf,

I saw the analysis you did on the inconsistency Marvin pointed out.  Is it possible the shadow from the long arm may be partially at fault?
(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/pict001617shadowsbitsse3.gif)
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: elevenaugust on June 12, 2008, 05:06:11 PM
From Spf33:

Is it possible the shadow from the long arm may be partially at fault?

no, i don't think so.  the shadow would be falling in the opposite direction if you are suggesting that the plane goes from dark to light because it is in shadow.

i'm fairly certain that it's nothing more than a highlight from the sun as that plane just barely gets a glancing angle with a tiny bit of rotation.  i might be able to test this a bit more because omf user hpo has sent me his model (http://www.hpaymans.demon.nl/Dronetest/Raj_test04c.jpg), the most accurate model created so far which should help with analysis.

Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: elevenaugust on June 12, 2008, 05:08:33 PM
From 10538

I spent some time looking at Marvin's problem.  Here's what I have.  Basically the same as BFT with the dark pipe added.
(http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/OMdrone02.jpg)

Thanks also to hpo for the graphic.
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: elevenaugust on June 12, 2008, 05:11:36 PM
From 10538:

Oops!  It seems I have made a mistake.  The dark area is not actually there. 
(http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/OMdrone03.jpg)

So I can't at this time come up with an explanation for the dark area in pic 16.  Still trying to figure out if it's caused by the long arm.
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: elevenaugust on June 12, 2008, 05:13:51 PM
From 10538:

Can someone point me to a 2D cad drawing or other representation of the Raj drone?  I'm specifically interested in an underside view of it.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: elevenaugust on June 12, 2008, 05:14:53 PM
From Spf33:

Can someone point me to a 2D cad drawing or other representation of the Raj drone?  I'm specifically interested in an underside view of it.  Thanks.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/565/hpodronelineds5.gif
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: spf33 on June 12, 2008, 06:49:45 PM
anyone know how hard the "always oriented NS or EW" rule is on utility poles?
are they supposed to be always 100% aligned to a compass?

(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/711/pict0015shadowses4.th.jpg) (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0015shadowses4.jpg)



Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: 10538 on June 12, 2008, 07:27:34 PM
anyone know how hard the "always oriented NS or EW" rule is on utility poles?
are they supposed to be always 100% aligned to a compass?

Never heard of it.  Of course I'm no expert on power poles.  This may be better put to Ken on OMF as he was a lineman.  But I really don't see the logic in aligning poles to a compass but instead it would make more sense to align them for their purpose of supporting the power lines and spreading tension forces to minimize weak spots.

BTW thanks for posting the 2d hpo graphic.


(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/711/pict0015shadowses4.th.jpg)
Tough to say.  First we must understand the wires cannot touch the wood.  There MUST be an insulator. 

Once again the drone seems to be tilted in such a way to almost align itself with the sun angle.  Am I the only one who finds there might be a pattern to this?  How about the odd tilt as it passed over the power pole?
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: HPO on June 12, 2008, 10:40:14 PM
From 10538:

Can someone point me to a 2D cad drawing or other representation of the Raj drone?  I'm specifically interested in an underside view of it.  Thanks.

Hi, when you download this free program called 'Edrawings' on this location http://www.solidworks.com/pages/programs/eDrawings/e2_downloadcheck.html
you can view my 2D and 3D Solid Works drawing from all angles.

P.S. you don't have check the " Yes, I want to view 3D XML and PRO/E files using eDrawings viewer. " option

2D download http://www.hpaymans.demon.nl/Dronetest/Drone%202007-05-16.EDRW
3D download http://www.hpaymans.demon.nl/Dronetest/Drone%202007-05-16.EASM


-HPO-
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: nekitamo on June 13, 2008, 11:29:23 AM
Thanks for sharing, HPO!
The level of detail is truly amazing, you did a great job!

(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9676/drone20070516mr6.jpg)
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: 10538 on June 13, 2008, 03:52:10 PM
Same here, HPO.  I'm looking forward to seeing a pic of the physical model.  :)
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: spf33 on June 13, 2008, 04:39:47 PM
Never heard of it.  Of course I'm no expert on power poles.  This may be better put to Ken on OMF as he was a lineman.


hm.  ok, well in the 3d scene i have the pict16 pole aligned pretty much aligned to the nsew compass.

i remember mentioning at some point that i didn't think changing that ns orientation affected the simulation results much on p16. but ever since you've pointed out that curved shadow that looks like the nub is casting it, i'm really wondering.  the curve is seen in p15, not in p16, and the shadow seems completely gone in p17.

hpo - thanks for sharing the edrawing!


Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: 10538 on June 13, 2008, 05:23:56 PM
Yes.  My suspicion is that the when the drone tilted, the shadow of the long arm was moved lower than the side attached appendage in #17.

Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: 10538 on June 13, 2008, 05:33:30 PM
hm.  ok, well in the 3d scene i have the pict16 pole aligned pretty much aligned to the nsew compass.

I am looking at poles in Capitola on google maps and they do not seem to respect NSEW.  Seems they are aligned with the streets.  BTW, most of Capitola is now on Street View in google maps.  Good luck all you pole hunters out there.  Be sure to look for this street lamp.

(http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/lamp.jpg) (http://www.soxlamps.com/uk%20and%20overseas_files/image002.jpg)

The Raj lamp has been identified as a variation of an "American Electric SRX-55".

http://www.soxlamps.com/uk%20and%20overseas_sub.htm

Supposedly, this is a very rare lamp.  If it's in Capitola it would stick out like a sore thumb.
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: spf33 on June 13, 2008, 06:36:54 PM
Supposedly, this is a very rare lamp.  If it's in Capitola it would stick out like a sore thumb.

has an attempt been made to ask pge (http://www.pge.com/index.html) about any American Electric SRX-55's in use in capitola?  or if they even inventory that kind of data?


Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: 10538 on June 13, 2008, 06:49:52 PM
has an attempt been made to ask pge (http://www.pge.com/index.html) about any American Electric SRX-55's in use in capitola?  or if they even inventory that kind of data?
Yes.  The PIs are looking into it.  One thing to keep in mind, this lamp may not be for city street use.  It may be on private property such as a parking lot.  In that case, pge may not be able to help.
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: HPO on June 13, 2008, 07:42:26 PM
Same here, HPO.  I'm looking forward to seeing a pic of the physical model.  :)

It's going to happen, I just got a green light today  ;) ,it's a private project but it is also going to be a technology demonstrator for our company's machines and craftmanschip on trade fairs  :D

But first I need to correct some parts before I start to build a scale model, the model will be partial build in both types of machines; Stereolythography and the Objet.
I want to build the main arm in the stereollythography machine, because I want to make a picture when the laser is drawing the 'text' on the arm  8)
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: leviathan on June 13, 2008, 08:09:38 PM
Fantastic.
Leviathan
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: spf33 on June 14, 2008, 03:39:55 AM
In that case, pge may not be able to help.

did you find any size info on the SRX-55?

It's going to happen, I just got a green light today...

wow, very cool.  what's the largest you can make it?
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: 10538 on June 14, 2008, 04:21:44 AM
did you find any size info on the SRX-55?

No, but judging by the pole it attaches to I'd guess it is standard street light size, probably 20-24"?
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: HPO on June 14, 2008, 07:36:06 AM

wow, very cool.  what's the largest you can make it?


How large I can make it depends on the costs involved, like Douglas wrote in another topic, a full size drone would cost a minimal of one hundred thousand Euro or US dollar, and if it's really that big as you guys calculated in the chad measurements topic, really much much more :o

But I've not yet determined on how large I will go with it. But it needs to be large enough to bring some strenght to the 'cage' on top,
and that I can use some standard size metal wires/rods on the main arm and appendices.

I'm going to build it in pieces, so it doesn't really depend on the dimensions of our machines, although I want to build the main torus in one piece.

-HPO-
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: nekitamo on June 30, 2008, 09:39:13 PM
I am looking at poles in Capitola on google maps and they do not seem to respect NSEW.  Seems they are aligned with the streets.  BTW, most of Capitola is now on Street View in google maps.  Good luck all you pole hunters out there.  Be sure to look for this street lamp.

(http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/lamp.jpg) (http://www.soxlamps.com/uk%20and%20overseas_files/image002.jpg)

The Raj lamp has been identified as a variation of an "American Electric SRX-55".

http://www.soxlamps.com/uk%20and%20overseas_sub.htm

Supposedly, this is a very rare lamp.  If it's in Capitola it would stick out like a sore thumb.


I did some research, and it seems this lamps are still in production/use:
http://www.americanelectriclighting.com/Products/Family.asp?Brand=AEL&Family=Roadway-Area-SRX&FID= (http://www.americanelectriclighting.com/Products/Family.asp?Brand=AEL&Family=Roadway-Area-SRX&FID=)
There's also a data sheet with exact dimensions, perhaps useful for further analysis of PICT15.

In fact, such low-pressure sodium lamps seem to be the most efficient light sources of all, but are not widely used because of their distinct yellow colored light (589 nanometres) (http://www.soxlamps.com/colour_data.htm). So they should indeed stick-out, but especially at night - anyone remembers seeing some nice images of Capitola at night while browsing for poles? Maybe the detectives could have spotted this lamp(s) at night from some vantage point overlooking Capitola much easier than by driving through the streets during the day?
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: 10538 on June 30, 2008, 09:52:27 PM
We have checked into distributors for this lamp and the closest to Capitola is San Jose which is not far away.  We are offering a reward to anybody who can locate it.  http://droneteam.com/reward/ (http://droneteam.com/reward/)
Unfortunately, I had not made this discovery prior to the Capitola trip.  Also, we did not do any pole searching at night.  You are correct.  This lamp is an odd ball and in my estimation provides the best clue for locating the Raj location, unless it's already been removed (highly likely)  :o.

One thing that might help, google maps street view now shows most of Capitola.  Maybe somebody might find it there.  My guess is this lamp is NOT over a street but more likely over a parking lot or outside a business.

Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: onthefence on December 13, 2008, 01:56:16 PM
I have noticed some bad science postings on one of the hoax believers forums here (http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=drone&num=1223123924&start=165).

The flawed argument is that 2D techniques can be used on a 3D scene by drawing parallel lines indicating sunlight.

In fact, sunlight obeys the laws of perspective in a 3D scene, and the actual shadows will not appear parallel. The following image was created using a 3D modelling program with a simulated Sun (not a "lamp"). The dashed lines are parallel and matched to the middle posts, notice that the far and near post shadows do not line up (circled) with the parallel lines.

(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/onthefence55/perspectiveshadows.png)

Proper photo analysis of a real 3D scene requires an exact 3D model and viewpoint, or 3D graphics software.
Title: Re: Shadows studies - Raj
Post by: majicbar on December 13, 2008, 06:28:57 PM
I am looking at poles in Capitola on google maps and they do not seem to respect NSEW.  Seems they are aligned with the streets.  BTW, most of Capitola is now on Street View in google maps.  Good luck all you pole hunters out there.  Be sure to look for this street lamp.

(http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/lamp.jpg) (http://www.soxlamps.com/uk%20and%20overseas_files/image002.jpg)

The Raj lamp has been identified as a variation of an "American Electric SRX-55".

http://www.soxlamps.com/uk%20and%20overseas_sub.htm

Supposedly, this is a very rare lamp.  If it's in Capitola it would stick out like a sore thumb.


I did some research, and it seems this lamps are still in production/use:
http://www.americanelectriclighting.com/Products/Family.asp?Brand=AEL&Family=Roadway-Area-SRX&FID= (http://www.americanelectriclighting.com/Products/Family.asp?Brand=AEL&Family=Roadway-Area-SRX&FID=)
There's also a data sheet with exact dimensions, perhaps useful for further analysis of PICT15.

In fact, such low-pressure sodium lamps seem to be the most efficient light sources of all, but are not widely used because of their distinct yellow colored light (589 nanometres) (http://www.soxlamps.com/colour_data.htm). So they should indeed stick-out, but especially at night - anyone remembers seeing some nice images of Capitola at night while browsing for poles? Maybe the detectives could have spotted this lamp(s) at night from some vantage point overlooking Capitola much easier than by driving through the streets during the day?

Lamp specs:

http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/library/Specification_Sheets/AEL/Specification%20Sheets/Roadway/Roadway/RW-SRX.pdf

This lamp is probably located near a park, or a parking lot for a park, or perhaps along an ocean overlook. In photo 16 note that only two conductors continue to the bottom left, indicating that no three phase power is used, as would only power which is being supplied for lighting. The streetviews are a bit blurry, but I think a lamp near 894 Park may be of this type? Maybe the poles being sought are in this area?