Drone Research Team

Drones Research Team - Research => Drones dimensions and location measurements => : HPO June 27, 2008, 11:05:20 PM

: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO June 27, 2008, 11:05:20 PM
First of all, when this isn't in the right category I apologize, but I thought when this scale model is done it can be used for research on the shadows, so I put it here.

In this thread I will keep you updated on the progress of the model, the model will be made on the Rapid Prototype machines I have to my disposal on the Rapid Prototyping company I work for.

We have Stereolithography machines like in the movie below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3gHHeD6cv8&feature=related

An Objet Eden500V Polyjet, also mentioned in the movie below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwOaoMxELmo

And vacuum casting systems like the one's mentioned below.

http://www.mk-technology.com/anlagen.html?&L=2

I will use the vacuum casting machines to copy the 'antenna's' on top of the drone, the photopolymer resins of the printers are to fragile for those 'antenna's' ,the composite vacuum cast polyeruthane resins are far more durable, just like ordinary plastics.
But of course I will use an Objet model as a master.

For building and finishing the model, my 15 years experience as a professional modelmaker will come in handy   ;D 8)


But first things first, last night I made some corrections on the CAD model, I would like to have some constructive criticism on the CADmodel to make it even better. So below you will find an updated Edrawing file which you can view with this free program called Edrawings.
You can download it from here  http://www.solidworks.com/pages/programs/eDrawings/e2_downloadcheck.html

(you don't have to check the Yes, I want to view 3D XML and PRO/E files using eDrawings viewer)

Edrawing file  Raj Drone-> Edrawing_03-07-2008 (http://www.hpaymans.demon.nl/Drone%20buildup/Raj%20drone%2003-07-2008.EASM)

Edrawing file  Chad Drone-> Edrawing_03-07-2008 (http://www.hpaymans.demon.nl/Drone%20buildup/Chad%20drone%2003-07-2008.EASM)


: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: nekitamo June 28, 2008, 12:30:44 AM
Can't wait for some pictures when it's done. Hope we'll get to see them? :)
Anyway, here's something I've noticed about the "wires" on the upper side of the small fins, their number seems to vary:

(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7172/wiresas7.jpg)

This is also the case with Chad's drone (bottom part of the image).
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO June 28, 2008, 01:53:56 AM
Can't wait for some pictures when it's done. Hope we'll get to see them? :)
Anyway, here's something I've noticed about the "wires" on the upper side of the small fins, their number seems to vary:

(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7172/wiresas7.jpg)

This is also the case with Chad's drone (bottom part of the image).

Of course you get to see them  :), I will also post pictures of the build.

Your right about the wires, I have changed it accordingly, I forgot to change that  ;), they where copies of the one parallel to the Big arm.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan June 28, 2008, 03:57:35 AM
I have 2 simple questions:
1. What is the purpose of the model?
2. What will the cost of the model be?
IC
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: BigFnTuna June 28, 2008, 06:25:59 AM
HPO,

I think it's great that you are doing the model...  Will be a good tool to further the research done here and maybe give us some perspective of the possibility of a model being used in the photos...

Also, could someone please post a shot of the model, I can't get the download to execute >.<

Tuna
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO June 28, 2008, 09:32:53 AM
I have 2 simple questions:
1. What is the purpose of the model?
2. What will the cost of the model be?
IC

Leviathan, this model started as a personel study on the drone, how it is put together, I thought the best way to do that, was to draw this drone myself in a CAD program.
But after a while I was thinking that it would be great to have a scale model of this drone, because it is an intriging design and will look good at the office or study at home  :)

So we got all those nice machines standing around for building prototypes for customers, I showed the CAD model at my boss/colleague and asked if I could build it as a personel project on those machines.
He liked the idea because it is a very detailed object , so it will also be a technology demonstrator at trade fairs (could be interesting to watch the reactions of visitors at the fairs), we don't do fairs in the U.S. , and in Europe I don't think many people have seen that thing before, but who knows.

This also answers the question of the costs, there will be none (not personal anyway, only for the company as an investment) I could make a calculation on costs as if it was build for a customer, but I don't have determed the size yet, personally I would like to build it as big as possible but there are limits on costs of course.
As for now, the model will be approximate 75cm long /27,5 inches.

I'm very curious if I can reproduces the shadows in the photo's, we don't have the same lighting conditions as in California, but it will be interesting to test it out. (I hope I don't crash the thing, when it is suspended  ::) )

HPO,

I think it's great that you are doing the model...  Will be a good tool to further the research done here and maybe give us some perspective of the possibility of a model being used in the photos...

Also, could someone please post a shot of the model, I can't get the download to execute >.<

Tuna

Tuna,....what does not execute?, Edrawings itself (the program) or the drawing.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: spf33 June 28, 2008, 03:36:48 PM
As for now, the model will be approximate 75cm long /27,5 inches.

wow!  much larger than i thought would be.
as someone who has kept somewhat of a distant eye on the technology (self replicating printer-self replicating robot (http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2008/06/24/reprap-creates-the-cylon-precursor/)), the idea of  printing the 3d drone at home is fascinating. (http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/fabathome.ars)

I'm very curious if I can reproduces the shadows in the photo's...

i would think this would be the very first thing that needs to be examined.


: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan June 28, 2008, 04:37:13 PM
HPO, thank you for your reply.  Here is why I am interested.

As you may know, this device has been a controversy from the beginning.  We here have made 50+ CG Drone models and partial Drone models.  From my experience with photo-polymer crafting and other methods, I am well aware of this technology.  The cost to a customer of the finished model, at the size you decide on, would be of interest to this research in showing some of the expense involved in this "HOAX" to the originators if it is a hoax.  The suspension of the model, placing it in the location, etc. would of course be other expenses.  Our little group here are not strangers to reproducing and designing items for industrial design (including by way of spark erosion).  We also DO NOT believe these devices (Drones) or the Isaac devices have a mundane explanation.  Models, CG, or whatever it is, an ordinary or lighthearted explanation will not solve this puzzle.  We appreciate your response and look forward to a successful completion of your project.
Leviathan
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO June 28, 2008, 07:41:59 PM
@ spf33

Yep,...seen those before, great stuff to have at home, only the accuracy is still lacking, but they will improve to some degree over time I guess, but more accuracy also means you need better (more expensive) materials to build the machine.
The Rapid Prototype market is an ongoing development; new machines, new materials, more accuracy etc.


@ Leviathan

It will indeed be a good reference of the expense involved, I will make a calculation made on material costs, I don't think that manhours is important in this case, because if it is a hoax they probably did it in their free time, unless it still is some kind of viral of course.
If the drone in the photo's is a model, I think it is big, to big for this kind of RP machines we got, you probably have to think at a high speed milling machine to make such an accurate and big model, but then again the amount of machine hours involved in such a project will be enormous.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 June 28, 2008, 07:49:34 PM

I'm very curious if I can reproduces the shadows in the photo's...

i would think this would be the very first thing that needs to be examined.

Please keep in mind that OTF found evidence that suggested the Capitola drone small arms were not perfectly aligned.  Remember the BB object and the not fully closed cage bars?

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO June 29, 2008, 11:10:03 AM
Please keep in mind that OTF found evidence that suggested the Capitola drone small arms were not perfectly aligned.  Remember the BB object and the not fully closed cage bars?

Yes I will,...I'm actually looking in to methods to detach and adjust the appendices, I was thinking at using small neodymium magnets.
I also need to make some space in the main ring to put some ballast in, to get the drone in balans when it is suspended on a minimum amount of wires.

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 June 29, 2008, 05:53:21 PM
The misalignment is not neccessary for your model, HPO.  I was thinking more about shadow analysis.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: BigFnTuna June 29, 2008, 08:28:12 PM
Tuna,....what does not execute?, Edrawings itself (the program) or the drawing.

It is working and that is very impressive work!  I can't wait to see the model that comes from that! 8)

Tuna
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO June 30, 2008, 11:58:58 PM
Tuna,....what does not execute?, Edrawings itself (the program) or the drawing.

It is working and that is very impressive work!  I can't wait to see the model that comes from that! 8)

Tuna

Ok good,......and thanks  :)


Here's a little update, I've made a section view in witch you can see the construction I'm planning on the main Ring and some of the attachments like the antenna's etc.
The main ring is going to be build in three parts.

All work in progress of course.

(http://www.hpaymans.demon.nl/Drone%20buildup/buildup01_%2030-06-2008.jpg)

-HPO-

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: spf33 July 01, 2008, 05:34:32 AM
All work in progress of course.

looking really good.  although keenly aware of the speculation involved your render is nicely satisfying!

thanks for the updated max file, i'll let you know as soon as possible how it works out.

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 01, 2008, 06:07:16 PM
All work in progress of course.

looking really good.  although keenly aware of the speculation involved your render is nicely satisfying!

thanks for the updated max file, i'll let you know as soon as possible how it works out.


Thanks,....but to what speculation are you referring, to how the real drone could work or speculating on how to build the model.
And take your time with the new MAX file, I'm curious on what your thoughts are on the dimension and proportion changes.

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: spf33 July 02, 2008, 03:09:42 AM
Thanks,....but to what speculation are you referring, to how the real drone could work or speculating on how to build the model.

when you put it that way, both i guess.  but i was referring to the building of the model.

And take your time with the new MAX file,

so...when can we expect the chad drone solidworks model to be completed?  ;)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels July 02, 2008, 04:45:41 AM
Nice work HPO!!!
Can't wait to see this model. My small paper model isnt finished yet, cannot find time  :(

Please be sure to take good pictures of it when ready!  ;)
I have just one observation about your CGI model (the best I've seen, kicks Salads ass  :) )

Looks like there are some very small squares in the rear surface of the raj drone:

(http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2800/rajidronhpoxa0.jpg)

Please don't miss it ;D
Regards
Ark
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 02, 2008, 12:04:11 PM
so...when can we expect the chad drone solidworks model to be completed?  ;)

Hehe  :D,..well I will look into it, will not be that hard to adjust the 'Raj' model.
The BB drone is another story  8), that one will take lots of time.

Nice work HPO!!!
Can't wait to see this model. My small paper model isnt finished yet, cannot find time  :(

Please be sure to take good pictures of it when ready!  ;)
I have just one observation about your CGI model (the best I've seen, kicks Salads ass  :) )

Looks like there are some very small squares in the rear surface of the raj drone:

Please don't miss it ;D
Regards
Ark

Thanks Ark  8),...you've got a good eye for detail, missed that one, I will put it in.
I also saw another geometry thingy in your comparison picture i have to adjust.
Anything else you saw?, this is just the kind of comments i need.... thanks.

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 02, 2008, 12:13:49 PM
Moved in the appropriate thread here (http://droneteam.com/drt/index.php?topic=124.45)

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 03, 2008, 10:03:40 PM
As requested,...the Solid works chad drone  ;)

(http://www.hpaymans.demon.nl/Drone%20buildup/chad%20drone%2003-07-2008.jpg)

The Edrawing file link (http://www.hpaymans.demon.nl/Drone%20buildup/Chad%20drone%2003-07-2008.EASM) can also be found at post one of this topic.

I will send you a Max file as soon as possible spf33.

I've also put an updated Raj drone file over there, I did not yet put the small squares of Arkhangels in it because I have found something odd about them that I have to look into.

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan July 03, 2008, 10:44:38 PM
HPO, have you decided what the size of the finished model will be?  Also, will all the model specifications be available here at DRT as to materials, approximate costs, the dimensions of the various elements,etc.  I believe time here is very important.
IC
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 03, 2008, 11:46:58 PM
Hi Lev,...no not decided yet, at the moment I'm adjusting the model to make it as cost efficient as possible, as in,... making it hollow and such.
The less material the machine needs to build the model the better, when that's done I have more insight in how long the machine will need to build the model at a specific size, the software of the machines can calculate the buildtime.

And yes, I will give a complete as possible calculation of costs, I will also include manhour costs (unlike I said before) for building and finishing the model.

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels July 04, 2008, 01:05:50 AM
Your Chad model is incredible!

And if you render it, it will kick the ass of any other chad drone already made, of any other supposed "CGI expert" out there, I'm pretty sure!

That's because you are the only one that made the top cage correctly, with the right curvature and thickness, and I'm not even talking about details...
And you sharing your model just show how honest you are, It pleases me to know that there's people that are really just searching for the truth and not recognition or ego-food.  ;)

Thanks for helping us with your effort in this saga!
 :)
Regards
Ark
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 04, 2008, 07:27:14 PM
Your Chad model is incredible!

And if you render it, it will kick the ass of any other chad drone already made, of any other supposed "CGI expert" out there, I'm pretty sure!

That's because you are the only one that made the top cage correctly, with the right curvature and thickness, and I'm not even talking about details...

And you sharing your model just show how honest you are, It pleases me to know that there's people that are really just searching for the truth and not recognition or ego-food.  ;)

Thanks for helping us with your effort in this saga!
 :)
Regards
Ark

Thanks again Ark  :) ,...spf33 asked about the model month's ago, but I didn't read the private message's on OMF  :-[  .
It was indeed my personel research on the drone, on how it's put together, and on how quick it could be drawn in a CAD program, and if anybody else wants to use it for testing purposes, why not.

The render was a test on how close I could get with the software I have to my disposal, we use Vue6 occasionally for rendering at work.
But like any other render I've seen,  close but no sigar. If it's a render it's done with very professional dedicated software IMO. But who am I.

It had nothing to do with ego food, I'm not that kind of guy. I'm always saying, "don't think your the one, there's always someone who's better" 
I'm to much of a perfectionist for that.

-HPO-

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 17, 2008, 10:46:27 PM
HPO, we hope your model is coming well, any news.  What will this model be used for besides trade shows and experimentation.  It would be of great interest to us to know if the model will have longevity or if the materials have a short life span.  Will the polymer hold up?  How will sunlight affect it?  Thanking you in advance for any info you might provide.  We have a vested interest it this model becoming a tangible object occupying height, length, width, and time (the more the better).
Thanks again.
IC

I haven't begun with building the model yet, due to the rush at work. The machines are totally filled with customer parts the last weeks, seems like every designer wants to have his parts before the holidays.
But this coming weekend it looks like I have some space, I will start with the main arm on a Stereolithography machine. It's going to be build in an ABS like resin Resin SL7580 (https://www.huntsmanservice.com/WebFolder/ui/browse.do?pFileName=/opt/TDS/Huntsman%20Advanced%20Materials/English/Long/SL%207580_ss_GB_final.pdf) on a 0.1 mm layer thickness.

The total lenght of the model will be around 68 cm / 26,77 inches from the tip of the main arm to the tip of the shorter appendage on the opposite site, the main ring will be 15 cm 5,9 inches in diameter.
So it will not be a very big model, but I have to keep an eye at the costs involved to make this model, I will make a  post calculation when it's ready but you must think in thousands of Euro's/Dollars for a completed and painted model when I had to build this for a customer.
As an example, we where building a series of 50 USB sticks for a design company, all with different logo's and different spraypainted finishes, from high gloss to to a soft touch paint, that order was in an amount of 11.000 Euro's because of all the labour involved.

Apart from being used at trade shows and photo experimentation, there isn't much else it can be used for, apart from looking good in my office of course  :D

The longevity can be a problem with this model, particularly the appendages, STL resins will bend under it's own weight at a longer time span and stay bend when it's not supported in some way or the other. But the ABS like SL7580 resin is the best choice in that regard.
I will use metal wires over the full lenght inside the arms to support them, the main arm has 4 wires anyway.
Sunlight will indeed affect the material because of it being a photopolymer, the UV wavelenght will make it yellow and brittle over time, but the model will be spraypainted so it's protected against UV light.

When you have more questions, please ask, I'll try to answer them.

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan July 18, 2008, 07:01:43 PM
HPO, as usual an excellent and thorough response.  We very much appreciate your answers to our questions and your contribution to the DRT.  It is posters such as yourself that contribute in such a positive manner.  This is the hallmark of this DRT Site and all here deserve praise for their varied work on this important issue.
Thank you,
IC
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 19, 2008, 12:10:01 AM
Ok,...the first parts are being build as I write  :)

Some pictures:

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Firstjobpreparation.jpg)

First the job preparation of the main arm, managing and sometimes correcting the support structures.


(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/SLA01.jpg)

And a picture of the machine building it, this is a 4 second exposure on a tripod. The laser is drawing the outlines of the parts (the borders) of 1 of the layers in this picture.
After drawing the borders the laser will fill up the space in between.

-HPO-




: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 July 19, 2008, 12:21:12 AM
Many thanks for posting the various stages of the process !
It's not only interesting as a technology but that looks great too.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: spf33 July 19, 2008, 01:32:01 AM
fantastic, hpo!
thanks to you and your company, it's a real treat to watch this developing.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Endzone July 19, 2008, 04:10:07 AM
Wow nice visuals, looks like something straight outta Tron! 8) 8)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 19, 2008, 07:52:09 PM
Wow nice visuals, looks like something straight outta Tron! 8) 8)

It does doesn't it  8),..good old Tron.

Anyways, an update.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Finished-1.jpg)

The machine was ready building this morning.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/draining-1.jpg)

First we have to let it drain a little before cleaning the parts.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Offsetting01-1.jpg)

This is the state it's in right now, I did some sanding, glued the "panda's" in and put some primer on it to get some contrast in the picture, because the resin itself is translucent and you wouldn't see much in the picture.
It looks like we have "offsetting" in real life also.

click to see the Original size :

(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Offsetting02-1_small.jpg) (http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Offsetting02-1.jpg)



-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 July 19, 2008, 08:19:47 PM
Extraordinary work !

The perspective creates the misalignment illusion with the 3 Pandas..

(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Offsetting01-1_small.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan July 19, 2008, 08:25:56 PM
Beautiful and the "so called" misalignment is there.  This shows the result of work instead of argument.
Thank you,
IC
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: elevenaugust July 19, 2008, 08:37:01 PM
I second this.
Really nice work HPO!!
Seems like a combination of lightening/bulbous bolts created the illusion of misaligned "pandas"
To try to replicate perfectly Raj's drone, we should add:
Did I miss something? :)

And also replicate the photographics condition: a 370 pixels object lenght in a 1600*1200 photo at 72PPP.
HPO photos were taken at 6:58PM Local time.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 19, 2008, 08:52:59 PM
Thanks all,...I was indeed not trying to exactly replicate the angle of the picture, the sun was to high up anyway.
It doesn't look like it, but it was in between some rain showers  8)


Here is a detail photograph of the arm, I don't know how big I can go with pictures in this forum :P
But as you can see there is still some work to do

(Edit: see picture in nemo's post below)

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 July 19, 2008, 08:56:25 PM
Wow!  This is so cool!  8)

HPO,

I don't know how much this venture costs but how much more does it cost to make many?  Have you thought of selling them as a kit model?  I'm very interested in one  :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 19, 2008, 09:00:39 PM
You've really done a lovely job so far and a great service to panda's everywhere :)  Excellent !  Cheers
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 July 19, 2008, 09:09:58 PM
Click the small image would open the large initial view in the browser

(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_IMG_2332_small.jpg) (http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_IMG_2332.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 19, 2008, 09:27:27 PM
Wow!  This is so cool!  8)

HPO,

I don't know how much this venture costs but how much more does it cost to make many?  Have you thought of selling them as a kit model?  I'm very interested in one  :)

No I have not thought of that,...but the way it's build now is way to expensive for mass production, even when we would make some silicone moulds of the parts it would  still be a little expensive and the series will be small, but when the drone is finished I will  make a calculation for a small serie with castings in silicone molds if you like.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Douglas July 19, 2008, 09:34:37 PM
Hey, HPO.....as a professional model builder myself, all I can say is......Very Impressive.  You have a lot more detail than I anticipated.  I assume you are using automobile  spray paint? The four wires are well done.  These projects are a lot more work than most people would imagine.  It's not something for a spare Saturday afternoon.  Lot's of time is involved in technical and industrial model building.

 Last year I built,  for clients,  models of future UK and Italian aircraft carriers, plus the planes on the deck. :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 19, 2008, 10:07:10 PM
Hey, HPO.....as a professional model builder myself, all I can say is......Very Impressive.  You have a lot more detail than I anticipated.  I assume you are using automobile  spray paint? The four wires are well done.  These projects are a lot more work than most people would imagine.  It's not something for a spare Saturday afternoon.  Lot's of time is involved in technical and industrial model building.

 Last year I built,  for clients,  models of future UK and Italian aircraft carriers, plus the planes on the deck. :)

Hey Douglas thanks,...No it's an industrial paint for plastics and metals, it's a 1 component primer, but we do also use some automobile paint from ALSA , specialy MirraChrome for  mimmicing Stainless steel, we have a paint booth at the company and use SATA sprayguns and  Harder & Steenbeck airbrushes.
I have spraypainted the arm with an airbrush with a bigger 0,6 mm needle.

Very interesting btw, those aircraft carriers, any pics?  :P
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Endzone July 20, 2008, 07:53:48 AM
Love it! :o And yeah, casting these in resin will bring the cost way down if you can produce some nice silicone molds. We do a ton of that stuff in the prop making we do in the 501st Legion and it's pretty cost effective. Fragile though, dropping most resins will break them, some are a bit more flexible.
More than anything, wow is all I can say, and I will be ordering one for sure.  8) 8) 8) 8)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: guerande July 20, 2008, 08:31:58 AM
Will be ordering one , too § Your work is  " fantastique " !!
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 20, 2008, 11:36:21 AM
Love it! :o And yeah, casting these in resin will bring the cost way down if you can produce some nice silicone molds. We do a ton of that stuff in the prop making we do in the 501st Legion and it's pretty cost effective. Fragile though, dropping most resins will break them, some are a bit more flexible.
More than anything, wow is all I can say, and I will be ordering one for sure.  8) 8) 8) 8)

Hi Endzone,...I like Star Wars myself,...you probably use hand casting resins, because of you saying they are fragile. Maybe it's interesting for you to know that there are resins that are as strong as real plastics.
But you need vacuum casting machines and ovens for them, if you have the time the following movie will let you see how we produce the castings.

http://www.mk-technology.com/schulung.html?&L=2
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Diouf July 20, 2008, 02:48:22 PM
Wow !! Fantastic work HPO !  :)

Are you the same HPO who did this at the very beginning ? (shown on OM)

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/diouf01/hpo_Q4-86-1.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: elevenaugust July 20, 2008, 03:13:50 PM
Here's HPO's Model:
(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9598/offsetting011corrected3bg0.jpg)


(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1928/offsetting011corrected2pa7.jpg)

Although the arm would require maybe to be slightly rotated, one can clearly see how the bolts/bulbeous bits/whatever are misaligned.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 20, 2008, 03:31:33 PM
Yes I created a simliar example:

(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/2967/mb7da1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/2967/mb7da1.af7688dc53.jpg) (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=157&i=mb7da1.jpg)

How they can say this isn't close to the original must come from some bias somewhere..  ;)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 20, 2008, 03:34:06 PM
Excellent way of bringing both together like that for comparision Eleventh!
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: drewlac July 20, 2008, 04:32:39 PM
I'm amazed, this model is outstanding!!! :o  My hat goes off to you. 

I'm looking forward to seeing the final product!!!

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan July 20, 2008, 05:08:39 PM
I have to bite my tongue to keep from mentioning the other sides response, but I will.  This work is superb and must be a FIRST in studying the UFO Phenomena.  Now the UFO community needs to take note, such as all the MUFONS, BUFONS and other FONS as to how a  community can, when allowed, progress toward a new paradigm. Congratulations on wonderful work to all concerned.
THE  L E V I A T H A N  GROUP (ALL NINE) just for LSS, OBI.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 20, 2008, 05:21:57 PM
Yes, Lev, with your group of 9  :D wild and crazy guys and the rest of the 74 DRT members here making progress towards the REAL truth of the Drones we will surely succeed.   ;D  WTG everyone!
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 July 20, 2008, 05:41:43 PM
(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_misalignment_small.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan July 20, 2008, 06:00:47 PM
tomi, they are not all guys.  We may be old, but we are not DEAD! ;) ;D
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 20, 2008, 06:14:05 PM
You can see I think where the base is slanted upwards and there is a twist in the base that provides a curvature from the base to the tip. This is clear in the example picture below with the red lines drawn through the base component.

To me this shows an aerodynamic tendency in the the arm curvature.  Just speculating. 


(http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/299/anglecomparisonrr6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/299/anglecomparisonrr6.2cb99bf6eb.jpg) (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=293&i=anglecomparisonrr6.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 20, 2008, 06:18:14 PM
tomi, they are not all guys.  We may be old, but we are not DEAD! ;) ;D

That's why I want to party with you people ;D  But wait.. not dead? ohh beyond dead :) :)  ;) I got it Goth!   8)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Douglas July 20, 2008, 06:27:33 PM
We should keep in mind that HPO is not building an actual Drone.  HPO is building a 'model' of a Drone.  There is a big difference.  There will be differences for all to see in the actual Drone and the model.  These differences do not matter. 
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 20, 2008, 06:36:29 PM
We should keep in mind that HPO is not building an actual Drone.  HPO is building a 'model' of a Drone.  There is a big difference.  There will be differences for all to see in the actual Drone and the model.  These differences do not matter. 

Oh absolutely, just adds to the perpective variance which has already been well demonstrated by HPO's model already.  It's so much of yet, another amazing detail and aspect of this design that I think they are even afraid of mentioning it over there  ;)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 20, 2008, 09:07:49 PM
Perfectly aligned?? ;D

No,.. they had real perspective issues too  ;) ;D
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 20, 2008, 09:51:47 PM
Wow !! Fantastic work HPO !  :)

Are you the same HPO who did this at the very beginning ? (shown on OM)

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/diouf01/hpo_Q4-86-1.jpg)

Yes the same one,....that render was an idea I got when looking at a science fiction movie, I don't know which one anymore though.
It was just a simple reflection and refraction test with the standard scanline renderer from Max, but I liked it  8)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 20, 2008, 10:10:03 PM
Wow !! Fantastic work HPO !  :)

Are you the same HPO who did this at the very beginning ? (shown on OM)

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd97/diouf01/hpo_Q4-86-1.jpg)

Yes the same one,....that render was an idea I got when looking at a science fiction movie, I don't know which one anymore though.
It was just a simple reflection and refraction test with the standard scanline renderer from Max, but I liked it  8)

I've always loved this, should be real in a gallery somewhere.  Brilliant  :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 20, 2008, 10:23:13 PM
Thanks tomi  :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 20, 2008, 11:02:08 PM
I must have the original somewhere but it's rather big, 2560x1600 if I remember correctly.

I'll have a look.

(edit: here you go, made a JPG of it, the original was a 12mb BMP  8) )


Click the picture

(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/hpo_Q4-86_small.jpg) (http://www.hpaymans.demon.nl/Drone%20buildup/Q4-86.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Diouf July 21, 2008, 09:38:24 AM
It's gorgeous HPO !
Tomi's right, it should belong in an Art Gallery. DRT certainly is lucky to have such diversified talents. Kudos to you  :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 July 21, 2008, 11:55:31 PM


(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Step1_small.jpg) (http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Step1.jpg) (http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Step2_small.jpg) (http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Step2.jpg) (http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Step3_small.jpg) (http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Step3.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 25, 2008, 05:32:10 PM
Ok,...next Job.

This is going to be build this weekend (hopefully when I find the time), it's the "item 15" and the ring I have named the "inner core".
They are also going to be build in the white ABS like STL resin.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02.jpg)

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: BigFnTuna July 25, 2008, 08:04:03 PM
HPO, I'm so envious you are going to have your own personal drone! 
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Endzone July 25, 2008, 08:15:54 PM
I can't wait to see it all together!!!!
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels July 26, 2008, 01:16:38 AM
Hey Hey

HPO nice job! The arm itself is incredible!
Nice to see the transition CGI to Model so close.

Keep up with the incredible work.

Regards
Ark
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 26, 2008, 08:49:51 PM
This is going to be build this night, went a lot of work in this one, I am also thinking in advance now, because all these parts have the possibility for an eventually casting. (because of the question from numbers  ;) )


(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02b.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Endzone July 26, 2008, 10:32:29 PM
Little off topic but since I mentioned how it looked like Tron in that one image, I have since found this from the latest Comicon in LA this year. Looks like we're about to see a great movie soon.....I'm sure the fools will try to connect it to the drones somehow...can't wait to see this.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vItiMW7jGg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vItiMW7jGg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 26, 2008, 10:55:53 PM
Wow,..I had to turn down the sub LOL  8)

Yes ! , Tron 2....I hope they did a good job on it,..... but connection to the drones, well they got those round thingies  :D
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 July 27, 2008, 04:09:28 PM
This is going to be build this night, went a lot of work in this one, I am also thinking in advance now, because all these parts have the possibility for an eventually casting. (because of the question from numbers  ;) )

So, how did it come out this morning ? Surprise ?
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 July 27, 2008, 04:52:49 PM
(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_Lenght.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 27, 2008, 10:01:41 PM
This is going to be build this night, went a lot of work in this one, I am also thinking in advance now, because all these parts have the possibility for an eventually casting. (because of the question from numbers  ;) )

So, how did it come out this morning ? Surprise ?

Very good actually,...I was afraid of loss of some detail but everything shows  :) ,I haven't put some paint on it yet but here are some pictures.

(Click the pictures for bigger one's)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02dsmall.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02d.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02esmall.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02e.jpg)

This is after a few hours of sanding and drilling, the way I designed this part makes it possible to put it together without glue, so they also can be used to make molds of them.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02fsmall.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02f.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02gsmall.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02g.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02hsmall.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/job02h.jpg)

Looks like the item15 in the inventory may not be broken at all, but it's the lower tapered fins.
And I see I have to adjust the placement of the antenna's  8)

-HPO-

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi July 27, 2008, 10:49:51 PM
This is just incredible HPO.  This is a mastery in itself, and those molds are going to be worth quite a penny  :D I'm suspecting.. 

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: onthefence July 27, 2008, 11:06:48 PM
Looks like the item15 in the inventory may not be broken at all, but it's the lower tapered fins.

Thank you for confirming that.
So, it is possible that the inventory image does not show a damaged drone, but rather an optical illusion of damage.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 July 27, 2008, 11:14:36 PM
(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/pacl-q385-inventory-review-Part15.jpg)(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_job02h_small.jpg)

http://droneteam.com/drt/index.php?topic=224.0
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 July 28, 2008, 12:21:15 AM
Impressive discovery.  The pacl photo shows the parts exactly as HPO's parts do. I always wondered how the internal spikes could be damaged without harming those long thin spikes on the outside.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 July 28, 2008, 12:26:50 AM
It may be a nice shot if HPO could compose
an "Inventory" pic, before assembling...
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: BigFnTuna July 28, 2008, 05:13:43 AM
Wow!  I actually giggle when I see how this is coming along, very impressive stuff...

Tuna
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: BigFnTuna July 28, 2008, 05:16:29 AM
(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/pacl-q385-inventory-review-Part15.jpg)(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/HPO_job02h_small.jpg)

http://droneteam.com/drt/index.php?topic=224.0

Very nice Nemo, more visual proof that this is a real object!

Tuna
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: westsail July 28, 2008, 02:55:49 PM
Absolutely brilliant! Very nice work indeed.
Please put me down for a cast resin replica.
I could just imagine the questions you will get at shows.  ;D
I would say tell them it is a ship from Star Trek. How are you supposed to explain that? LOL
Many people will be quite emotional when they see this, subconsciously it is recognised.
Anyway, best of luck and keep us updated. You are quite fortunate to have the skills and resources to accomplish such a feat.
Thank your boss from all of us. Can't wait to see the completed replica.
-westsail

P.S. Just want to give a personal thanks to you for the beautiful 3d graphic of the lap you made, back in the day. It has been my wallpaper on one machine since the first day you posted it. It is quite the conversation piece round here.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan July 28, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
How interesting it would be to see the finished model (probably not strong enough) in a series of wind tunnel tests.  Who is to say what the aerodynamic properties really are!
IC
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 28, 2008, 09:30:43 PM
Absolutely brilliant! Very nice work indeed.
Please put me down for a cast resin replica.
I could just imagine the questions you will get at shows.  ;D
I would say tell them it is a ship from Star Trek. How are you supposed to explain that? LOL
Many people will be quite emotional when they see this, subconsciously it is recognised.
Anyway, best of luck and keep us updated. You are quite fortunate to have the skills and resources to accomplish such a feat.
Thank your boss from all of us. Can't wait to see the completed replica.
-westsail


P.S. Just want to give a personal thanks to you for the beautiful 3d graphic of the lap you made, back in the day. It has been my wallpaper on one machine since the first day you posted it. It is quite the conversation piece round here.

Thanks westsail  :), I didn't know the 3D Lap graphic had so much interest.

And yes the main answer will be that it is a SciFi model, but I'm curious how many people will recognize the thing  :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 28, 2008, 09:37:09 PM
How interesting it would be to see the finished model (probably not strong enough) in a series of wind tunnel tests.  Who is to say what the aerodynamic properties really are!
IC

Your right the model will not be strong enough, but when the drone's are real I don't think they need to worry about air thickness and lift or negative lift. With such a design it's almost certain that they have overcome that IMHO.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO July 28, 2008, 10:10:11 PM
Some pictures of the painted model, (inventory style)  :P

(Click the pictures)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Inventory01small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Inventory01.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/item15small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/item15.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Endzone July 29, 2008, 01:37:13 AM
Amazing detail!
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: knowhow August 04, 2008, 06:15:13 PM
HPO
Why not just post the dxf file so that all of us who have ACAD/Intergraf and other American Software can view the file in full access software that we can comment on the design details.
If this is not possible say due to proprietary considerations, I will download the 11.5 mb reader you suggest.
knowhow
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 04, 2008, 06:57:14 PM
knowhow

It's not about proprietary considerations, but I think it's not a good idea that my model or models take a free ride over the internet.
Just avoiding anymore hoaxes.
: Raj Drone Modeling
: knowhow August 05, 2008, 02:26:55 PM
HPO
I am working with the Raj Pic 17 (I think) where the drone is on the right side of the pole.  With camera angle about 26.8 degrees I get an angle for the "counter-weight looking" portion at around 90 degrees.  I see in your comparison with Isaac Item 15 your model appears to be about 83 degrees and in the section above it appears to be over 135 degrees.  I assume this is because you are playing around with different looks.  I am interested in the six probes sticking out to the right.  If we number them counter-clockwise from the bottom to the right as one thru six,  I am seeing about ten degrees from 1 to 2 and from 3 to 4.  I am seeing the inside angle between 3 and 4 as about 20 degrees. The angles from the extremes to probe 1 and to probe six appear to be a little over 16 degrees.
In your model and the Isaac Item 15 there appears to be different assumptions for the centers of the probes using the three point circle function of ACAD.
knowhow
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 05, 2008, 06:00:12 PM
Yes you are right, I made some angle size changes in between the section view above and the final model, because I found them to be to big.

On the probes you are also correct, but don't take that picture as a reference because the probes are not fixed in that picture, they can still pivot on a very small pin on the main item15 body.
I moved the object in between pictures to get a correct angle, so the probes got a little messed up on the angles because they touched the floor.  ;)
: Isaac Item 15 askew
: knowhow August 07, 2008, 05:56:06 PM
Isaac Inventory Item 15
This item 15 seems to be out of line with the rest of the photo.  All the other annulus pieces have an elliptical shape supposedly because of camera angle.  In item 15 the curved surfaces are perfect circles.  The angles are exact copies of each other.  The overall angle is 82.5 and has a perfect bisection for the break. While the probes appear to all have a common center, that center is offset from the centers for the curved surface and for the overall shape of the piece. Note the center crosses are the same color as the circle color.
I was working on this as a result of HPO modeling but this observation may belong somewhere else. I put it here so HPO can see how it differs from the real photograph by Raj.
Knowhow
(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/KnowHow_IsaacItem15.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan August 07, 2008, 06:17:55 PM
Interesting, so what is your conclusion from this discovery?
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Isaac Item 15 askew
: 10538 August 07, 2008, 06:22:07 PM
Isaac Inventory Item 15
This item 15 seems to be out of line with the rest of the photo.

Alleged discrepancy could easily be caused by perspective.  Also your yellow lines do not appear to be correct.  Let's see if HPO can provide a photo of the Raj drone side appendage laying in the same attitude from the same perspective and focal length.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 07, 2008, 07:34:00 PM
Well I think I know the reason for that, I think it's a combination of perspective and the geometry of this item, this item is tilted towards the camera because of the geometry, it's tapered as you can see in PICT0015, and you also put the left yellow line of the 82.5 angle on the highest point and the lowest point of the model, this way the yellow line is tilted upwards and doesn't point to the correct center.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: majicbar August 07, 2008, 07:49:58 PM
I also conclude with numbers and HPO that this is an illusion and that the 3-d model when photographed from the same angle will show that this is exactly an issue of the perspective and the items geometry relative to the camea angle. Go back and project the object 15's shape from the center established for the probes and you will see that this is so. Also, remember that the part is resting on the concrete and this piece is also beveled on top, which is also exagerating the angle knowhow derives.
: Item 15
: knowhow August 07, 2008, 08:00:22 PM
I believe the left yellow line is slightly off as suggested by 10538 but if the center of the yellow lines is closer to the center for the probes then it further makes the point that this view is "drawn" by someone and inserted into a photograph of other parts from other drones. If the item 15 is tilted from the other annulus shapes, it seems miraculous that the curved sections came out so nearly perfect circles. Then it seems really strange that the angles are so nearly bisectioned for the probes. I don't see anything like that on the Raj images and I have not found this item on other drone images.
But I totally agree if HPO can generate a model of the Raj images, then it will add clarity to an important issue.
knowhow
: Raj Drone Dimensionless Analysis
: knowhow August 07, 2008, 10:17:57 PM
There appears to be a message in the dimensionless ratios that the annulus has something to do with gravity.  The ratio of the inner red circle describing the bottom of the hole compared with the yellow ring seems to be a number .66730 which is also the same digits in the acceleration due to gravity.  There are other ratios where the meaning is still under investigation.
knowhow

(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/KnowHow_RajDroneMessagePic17.jpg)
: Re: Raj Drone Dimensionless Analysis
: Douglas August 07, 2008, 11:03:51 PM
Very good analysis Knowhow.  Maybe the central ring is generic and the various attached 'spikes' relate to the gravity of a specific planet they are observing. 

There is probably nothing about this craft that is 'accidential'.  Each part has an important purpose to it's mission of surveillance.

Also, EVS:  Yes, yes, yes.....this is a real photo. I knew it the minute I saw it.  It's no wonder that Isaac was so startled that he made his now famous revelations.

These Drones have been observing this planet for centuries.  My research PROVES it.

DOUGLAS

+++++++++++++++++++++++




There appears to be a message in the dimensionless ratios that the annulus has something to do with gravity.  The ratio of the inner red circle describing the bottom of the hole compared with the yellow ring seems to be a number .66730 which is also the same digits in the acceleration due to gravity.  There are other ratios where the meaning is still under investigation.
knowhow

(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/KnowHow_RajDroneMessagePic17.jpg)

: Raj Drone Probe Design
: knowhow August 08, 2008, 06:08:29 PM
This Raj Drone analysis shows potential design criteria for the probes and perhaps the type of things we ought to be looking at to try and understand how it works.  The camera angle is key to getting a true perspective and the elliptical shapes indicate a camera angle around 23 to 24 degrees.  The camera angle herein is for the bottom left blue probe and is not necessarily identical to the elliptical shapes. If you scale this photo, you should be able to use some type of scale factor off the true drawing probe lengths and be fairly consistent.
Knowhow

(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/KnowHow_DroneRajProbeAnalysis-1.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 August 08, 2008, 06:10:54 PM
HPO,

I am suspecting perspective issues of the 2D pics are at the root of the Raj shadow issues that have been brought up recently.  (conveniently so  ;))

Is it possible your EASM cad drawing of the Raj drone has an inaccuracy with the large arm?  I'm thinking it should be longer in relation to the main body.

: Re: Raj Drone Probe Design
: elevenaugust August 08, 2008, 06:55:23 PM
(http://ovnis-usa.com/images/KnowHow_DroneRajProbeAnalysis-1.jpg)
Nice work, knowhow.
Could you explain more about your theories who might explain how the drone works?
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 08, 2008, 11:07:30 PM
HPO,

I am suspecting perspective issues of the 2D pics are at the root of the Raj shadow issues that have been brought up recently.  (conveniently so  ;))

Is it possible your EASM cad drawing of the Raj drone has an inaccuracy with the large arm?  I'm thinking it should be longer in relation to the main body.


You mean the 2D CAD drawing?, that one is indeed an older one with a shorter arm, the 3D is a newer one with a longer arm. I still have to renew the 2D.
But I don't exactly know what you are referring to with the issues of the 2D Pics.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 August 08, 2008, 11:37:49 PM
HPO,

I am suspecting perspective issues of the 2D pics are at the root of the Raj shadow issues that have been brought up recently.  (conveniently so  ;))

Is it possible your EASM cad drawing of the Raj drone has an inaccuracy with the large arm?  I'm thinking it should be longer in relation to the main body.


You mean the 2D CAD drawing?, that one is indeed an older one with a shorter arm, the 3D is a newer one with a longer arm. I still have to renew the 2D.
But I don't exactly know what you are referring to with the issues of the 2D Pics.

Thanks HPO.  That confirms my findings.  I'm still working on light/shadow analysis and am using your 2D CAD drawing for reference to eliminate perspective problems.  Everything was coming together nicely but the large arm.

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: mgrandin August 16, 2008, 09:57:38 AM
Hope you will continue your hitherto impressing work
modelling a drone,  HPO.  Although the general climate
for the drones appear not very encouraging just now.

But what you already have done is very interesting, for instance  how the 6-spiked part could appear "cracked"
in certain perspective. But that "cracked" appearance
must be present also in a CG simulation I think - otherwise this is maybe even more strange than the drones themselves. (Is there something magical in the
shape?)

This model is stimulating as a truly real thing in this debate,  where we don't know for sure what else is
real.

Let the force be with you!    8)

 
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 16, 2008, 05:59:52 PM
Don't worry mgrandin, it's the rush at work that prevents me from working at the drone and of course prevents the machines from building parts at the moment, but the work will continue.

Thanks,
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 August 17, 2008, 09:13:58 PM
Although the general climate for the drones appear not very encouraging just now.

It may appear that way.  But while looking for some data from the drone beginning I came across a very prophetic post made by Bren (Admin) of OMF on the May 7 2007, the first day of the drone.
The devil is in the detail - sure enough.  But the point here is not necessarily about 'proving' anything to anybody - there will always be something 'not right' for somebody! It's ALL always going to be subjective - even if you get beamed up, you're going to have to wonder if it isn't an hallucination anyway. It's all subjective.

What we don't need is people (or worse, websites!) 'telling us' what to think and making 'judgments' as to what IS or ISN'T 'real'.

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 25, 2008, 07:11:26 PM
Finally the Objet had some space !  :)

Because of the Objet being more accurate in the Z direction, I've waited to build the "antennas" and the "half rings" on the Objet.
I'm also building the main ring on the Objet because of all the detail. On this particular job only the lower half of the ring and the "crown parts", because I want to check some measurements before I'm going to build the upper half.

Some pictures (click on the pics for bigger)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/ObjetStudio_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/ObjetStudio.jpg)

Placing the parts in Objet Studio (one spare for the smaller parts), you can see the build time and the material consumption on the toolbar below.


(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Eden500_01_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Eden500_01.jpg)


(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Eden500_02_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Eden500_02.jpg)

And some pictures of the first layers, you can't see the printerhead because of the long exposures, you only see some light stripes.
The parts are incapsulated in support material, so the contours you see in the pictures are not really the outlines of the parts (if you were wondering  ;) )
Tomorrow hopefully some pictures of the parts.

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan August 26, 2008, 01:03:09 AM
Very nice, congratulations HPO
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels August 26, 2008, 01:11:27 AM
Great!
And thanks for keeping me up with the good work!

Regards
Ark
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Endzone August 26, 2008, 02:56:58 AM
 8) Woot great to see you do these, I was curious how you were gonna do the top "antennas", and now I wish we had one of these in our machine shop. ;)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Diouf August 26, 2008, 08:16:47 AM

Thank you for sharing the process HPO.
Its really impressive !
 :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels August 26, 2008, 06:54:50 PM
Again Thanks HPO!
It is really astonishing your skills and dedication.
 ;)
Regards
Ark
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 26, 2008, 11:07:13 PM
Thanks all,... appreciated  :) !!

The first finished parts on the Objet, like I wrote earlier, they are all incapsulated in support resin.
The support resin is Gel like and can easily broken away from the parts. The last residue of the support resin is washed away in a waterjet cabin.

(click for bigger)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Ready_01_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Ready_01.jpg)


(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Ready_02_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Ready_02.jpg)

After the cleaning the first test fittings, (no paint yet), and it all fits together very well   :)
Of course the antennas can not be tested yet, but when they fit as good as the rest, I aspect no problems.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_01_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_01.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_02_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_002.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_03_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_03.jpg)


-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: tomi August 26, 2008, 11:19:25 PM
That is really incredible!   :)   It's just astonishing to see this and its excellent.  Thanks :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 26, 2008, 11:52:48 PM
I just saw that I put the "Item15" at the wrong side LOL  ;D,....ah well it's only for testing.

And thanks Tomi !
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 August 27, 2008, 04:49:28 PM
8) Woot great to see you do these, I was curious how you were gonna do the top "antennas", and now I wish we had one of these in our machine shop. ;)

Yes, I also was wondering about the top antennas.  Will it require the use of some kind of jig to hold them while the glue dries?

It looks like the pieces from a model airplane.  That would be cool if marketed as a kit model.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: mgrandin August 27, 2008, 06:30:50 PM
The Force obviously still is with HPO.     8)

A flying remote controlled model of this might be fun.   :)



: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 27, 2008, 07:38:13 PM
8) Woot great to see you do these, I was curious how you were gonna do the top "antennas", and now I wish we had one of these in our machine shop. ;)

Yes, I also was wondering about the top antennas.  Will it require the use of some kind of jig to hold them while the glue dries?

It looks like the pieces from a model airplane.  That would be cool if marketed as a kit model.

I don't think I need a jig for them, as you can see below the antennas fit tightly into a square hole in the main ring, so the antennas are always facing the right direction (center).
The "half rings" in the pictures above are placed in the same manner and they fit very well and also face to the center, and I didn't even have to glue them because of the tight fit (even in just one half of the main ring).

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/antennadetail.jpg)

The Force obviously still is with HPO.     8)

A flying remote controlled model of this might be fun.   :)

Hehe,...then we have to find a way for lifting, maybe a center propellor, or two of them contra rotating so you don't need a tail rotor  :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels August 27, 2008, 09:00:08 PM
Nice!


The first finished parts on the Objet, like I wrote earlier, they are all incapsulated in support resin.
The support resin is Gel like and can easily broken away from the parts. The last residue of the support resin is washed away in a waterjet cabin.


I have one question regarding this quote. How do you make if the part is too thin? There's not a risk of breaking it while trying to remove the support resin? There's not a risk of injuries in the parts due to the pressure of the water in the waterjet cabin? How would you clean very small and complex parts, without risk?

My curiosity, I'm very interested in this kind of thing.  :D
Regards
Ark

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 28, 2008, 12:22:28 AM
Hi Ark,...a good question, yes there is a risk of breaking very tiny parts, with this kind of parts we don't use the waterjet, we only use tools like knives etc. to remove the support.
But there are also different build modes for the support resin, the mode I used for these parts is the matt function where the hole part is covered in support. But there is also the high gloss function, where only the areas of the part that need support are supplied with support resin, the areas of the parts that are free from support resin have a glossy surface hence the name high gloss mode.
We can also adjust the parameters of the support on how much it is attached to the part, the support on an objet part is not only made out of gel resin but also an amount of model resin is used, it's a mix.
The more model resin is used in the support, how harder it is to remove from the parts, but it is more firm, you can emagine that heavy parts need a more firmly support.
These are al things that you need to consider when you prepare a job on the machine.
   
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels August 28, 2008, 01:21:56 AM
Uhmmmmm :)
Interesting!

So in a certain way you not only have to project the model itself, but the support as well, in such a way that it will preserve the integrity of the parts? For example, you have a model with a very heavy part dangling from the rest, so you have to think how much of the model resin is mixed with the support resin and how it will support the heavy part while the machine create it's layers right?

Thanks
Ark
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 August 28, 2008, 01:33:46 AM
Technical info :
"Stereolithography is not an inexpensive process. The machines themselves usually cost in excess of $250,000. They have to be vented because of fumes created by the polymer and the solvents. The polymer itself is extremely expensive. CibaTool SL5170 resin, a common photopolymer used in stereolithography, typically costs about $800/gallon. For these reasons, it is uncommon to find stereolithography machines anywhere but in large companies."
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Endzone August 28, 2008, 02:38:20 AM
Exactly why we don't have one of those machines in our machine shop. We paid almost $175,000 for our Matsura and Kitimura machines to mill aluminum and that was for used ones. My partner says we'll get one of these when we can find a used one for $100,000 or less that fits our needs. But so far no luck and with the economy sucking ass lately we can just barely afford to update the software and servo drive system for the Matty. It sure would make it much easier to do preform samples of our aircraft hinges to send as sample parts instead of sending out a full $50.00 set of hinges for free.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 28, 2008, 06:47:28 AM
Uhmmmmm :)
Interesting!

So in a certain way you not only have to project the model itself, but the support as well, in such a way that it will preserve the integrity of the parts? For example, you have a model with a very heavy part dangling from the rest, so you have to think how much of the model resin is mixed with the support resin and how it will support the heavy part while the machine create it's layers right?

Thanks
Ark

Yep,...you got it, but saddly there are limits in how much you can adjust, for example you can only adjust the support for the entire part not certain areas and you only have three build options to choose from.

Technical info :
"Stereolithography is not an inexpensive process. The machines themselves usually cost in excess of $250,000. They have to be vented because of fumes created by the polymer and the solvents. The polymer itself is extremely expensive. CibaTool SL5170 resin, a common photopolymer used in stereolithography, typically costs about $800/gallon. For these reasons, it is uncommon to find stereolithography machines anywhere but in large companies."

Altough it is some older information, the prices are still around that for stereolithography yes. We are not a large company but a service buro for other companies, so we like our machine to run 24 hours a day to be cost effective.


Exactly why we don't have one of those machines in our machine shop. We paid almost $175,000 for our Matsura and Kitimura machines to mill aluminum and that was for used ones. My partner says we'll get one of these when we can find a used one for $100,000 or less that fits our needs. But so far no luck and with the economy sucking ass lately we can just barely afford to update the software and servo drive system for the Matty. It sure would make it much easier to do preform samples of our aircraft hinges to send as sample parts instead of sending out a full $50.00 set of hinges for free.

I don't know how big those hinges are, but I don't think they would be less than $50.00 for a set of stereolithography or Objet parts, but maybe the customer could have some samples quicker this way.

BTW Also nice machines you got !!
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 28, 2008, 09:42:12 PM
Made some Decals today with a laserprinter on laserprinter Decal paper  :)
It does not really show on the photo, but everything is "readable" , even the smallest text.

Thanks again for the Font,.. Cage !

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Decals_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Decals.jpg)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: EVS August 29, 2008, 10:37:26 PM
Excellent work, HPO!

I wouldn't be surprised that when your model is finished, some will say it's your model showed in the witness photo's...as realistic as it is...!  ;)

Well, maybe it IS your model, once finished it travels back in time, and are photographed by Chad and company...and again scrutiniced by all of us...and here we have the paradox. ;D

By the way, I have used some of my (rare) spare time reading some forums, and I find it puzzling that sworn believers of this being a hoax show such extraordinary interest in what goes on at the DRT...? Maybe it is the fear or anticipation that it just might be real afterall?   ::)

Anyway, if Chad is called a hoaxer (as I understand) all witnesses has to be under that suspicion, as they all saw a similar craft, and if it is hoaxed, all has to have some relations besides being witnesses, and responsible for the "Isaac" revealations. And for what agenda? It's certainly not cheap to come by a model the way HPO works so brilliantly, nor to suspend it in the air, which is the only way I see it could be hoaxed, now we have ruled out CGI most 99%. I do not see that relation as of yet.

EVS


 

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan August 30, 2008, 07:13:08 PM
What an unexpected comment.  EVS, do not underestimate your idea, there are many things at work here.  We are very anxious to see this model finished and we (yes we) have our on reasons.
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Diouf August 30, 2008, 11:14:51 PM
HPO,

Your model will be the #1 prize ( priceless) in the Drone Art Gallery !
 :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO August 31, 2008, 10:11:48 PM
HPO,

Your model will be the #1 prize ( priceless) in the Drone Art Gallery !
 :)

Well thanks in advance then  ;),... but I don't really call my daily job Art, the machines are doing the biggest job  :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 03, 2008, 07:25:36 PM
The Objet machine made the upper half of the main ring last night.
I did some test fitting today  :)
I've noticed that I have to reshape some of the "antennas" they got bend during cleaning I guess, I didn't notice it before
but when assembled it shows.

Here are some pictures, it's starting to look like a drone. (BTW still no glue here)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_04_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_04.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_05_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_05.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_06_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Testfit_06.jpg)

-HPO-

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: mgrandin September 03, 2008, 08:23:50 PM
A new baby drone is born - how cute!   :-*

And the first time we see them from above ....
(except from in some CGI-videos/pictures).
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Endzone September 04, 2008, 04:14:25 AM
Simply beautiful, great job! 8) 8) 8) 8)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: MidusTouch September 04, 2008, 10:26:44 AM
HPO,

Your work is top notch and I really hope someone somewhere will pay you loadsamoney to build the BB craft model for us to study.  ;D

In pure research sense, your drone model is in different category/class than the CG stuff UK salad made IMHO. You followed your beliefs and made a model that we all benefit - priceless.

Btw, I would suggest to make a display stand for this beauty or use a long thin metal rod to lift it up like those plastic toy planes we get in toy'r'us.   ;)

Cheers



: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels September 09, 2008, 10:48:46 PM
The model is incredible, like I said in every step of the process  ;D

And you, HPO, answered my previous question in a practical manner. I asked if the cleanning process could not break, bend, thin parts. And here are you confirming your answer, regarding the top antennas  :D

Regards
Ark
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 10, 2008, 06:42:55 AM
The model is incredible, like I said in every step of the process  ;D

And you, HPO, answered my previous question in a practical manner. I asked if the cleanning process could not break, bend, thin parts. And here are you confirming your answer, regarding the top antennas  :D

Regards
Ark


Yes Ark,... :-[ :'(....... ;)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 21, 2008, 08:42:26 PM
A new update,...the drone is getting close to completion  :) , I'm waiting for some parts I ordered, 1mm stainless steel wire for the small arms wires and some fluids for applying the Decals (the "text")

The "small" arms still needed to be build on the stereolithography machine

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/SecondaryarmsSTL_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/SecondaryarmsSTL.jpg)

Three different types,... I've separated the arms in an upper and lower half, because of the arms being tapered. This way I could keep the visible sides on the horizontal level (no build layers visible) and support free.

Then there was the problem with the "antennas" being bend, to get them back in shape again I needed some kind of rig to correct them, I drew one in Solid Works, it has the curvature and positioning "grooves" for the "antennas",... and made a STL part from it.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Correctionrig_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Correctionrig.jpg)

I've taped the "antennas' against the rig and heated them cautiously with a heat gun, after cooling down they where back in shape again  8)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Correctionrig_heatgun_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Correctionrig_heatgun.jpg)

For attaching the smaller arms and eventually the "item15" to the main torus, I ordered some small neodymium magnets, this way the arms can easily be attached and deattached from the torus for transportation purposes or different configurations like a "Chad one".

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/neodymium_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/neodymium.jpg)

And finally some pictures of the state the drone is in right now, most of it is build and painted, I only need to finish the little "screws" that go in to the holes in the smaller arms. And of course the "text" and the wires.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Tempinventory_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Tempinventory.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Assembly01_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Assembly01.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Assembly02_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Assembly02.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Assembly03_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Assembly03.jpg)


-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 September 21, 2008, 09:09:34 PM
It's beautiful! (http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/SM120.gif)  A true work of art  (http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/thumbsup.gif)

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Endzone September 22, 2008, 06:11:44 AM
Simply stunning piece of work! I can see much information being aquired from having this model available. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Diouf September 22, 2008, 08:11:54 AM

Wow !!!  :-*

Thank you for showing us each step.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan September 22, 2008, 04:50:28 PM
The real BEAUTY of the Drone can now be seen.  Does anyone, besides a few here, understand that someone or something had to design this from scratch and it looks very functional for a device that does not adhere to human ideas of flight or physics.
Beautiful Job
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Douglas September 22, 2008, 06:24:20 PM
HPO:  Stunning model of the Drone.  Awesome.

Lev:   The first time I saw the BB photos I was in awe of it's unearthly, exotic beauty.  IMO, there is even something slightly sinister about it.  IOW, it's a tad scary and beautiful at the same time.

It is the epitome of form and function. 

When George Adamski was onboard the Nors mothership he was told by his space alien host not to describe [ in his books] a particular robot craft that he viewed.  If he had seen just a round or spherical robot craft they would not have objected.  The admonition was because he had just seen a very unusual looking craft....the Drone. I believe we now know what he saw.

DOUGLAS

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The real BEAUTY of the Drone can now be seen.  Does anyone, besides a few here, understand that someone or something had to design this from scratch and it looks very functional for a device that does not adhere to human ideas of flight or physics.
Beautiful Job
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan September 22, 2008, 07:06:41 PM
Douglas, what a pleasure to read comments from someone who can actually see.  You are so correct about the Big Basin Drone and its visual qualities.  It has a commanding appearance as if it had been DESIGNED to show authority and what ever it is it is not just off the showroom floor.  The posters here do such a valuable job on this and no one has said this is absolutely real.  It is the true mystery as to why and for what purpose that is important to those who can see.
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 22, 2008, 07:11:43 PM
Thanks all,...Much appreciated  :)

And about the design,...I think that's one of the reasons we are still here talking about them.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: EVS September 23, 2008, 09:37:59 AM
Absolutely a cute little drone!  :)

Having something like this around (a real 3D model) could cast light
on how shadows work in relations to the photo's.

Which in time could bring us a step closer to the truth.

Very good job, HPO!

EVS
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Kaelos September 25, 2008, 06:36:21 AM
Only one word!

Félicitations  HPO !!!


 
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 25, 2008, 07:05:29 AM
Merci beaucoup !  :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: drewlac September 25, 2008, 10:53:38 AM
how cool, you now have you're very own drone  ;D Excellent job!!

when do you start casting shadows on it?
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan September 25, 2008, 05:27:01 PM
Very nice job.  The Drone Design, from somewhere, is Beautiful.  The Drone model already shows the vagaries of light and shadow.
L E V I A T H A N
PS: Surprised you are interested drewlac.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: drewlac September 26, 2008, 12:55:43 PM
PS: Surprised you are interested drewlac.

I've never lost interest and have always been lurking and following along.  I may not agree with everyone's conclusions regarding the Drones;however, this doesn't mean that I don't respect the hard work that is done by the members of this form.  I attempt to review the data for myself to formulate my own opinions.  This being said, if anything new should arise, I want to know!   ;)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: guerande September 26, 2008, 06:49:19 PM
Very good job , HPO  . As said before , may I have one ?  ;D  BTW : are u French ?
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 26, 2008, 09:02:25 PM
Very good job , HPO  . As said before , may I have one ?  ;D  BTW : are u French ?

Hi guerande,...I haven't made a start yet with calculating the produktion costs of an eventual series of drones in silicone moulds.
But when I decide to do so, you can have one of course, but expect a high price, it's an expensive way of producing the parts the way we do because of all the labour involved.

No I'm not French, I had french at high school, but most of it is lost over the years  :D ,...I'm Dutch.

how cool, you now have you're very own drone  ;D Excellent job!!

when do you start casting shadows on it?

When it's ready  ;D , and I have to build a model telephone pole also  8)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 September 26, 2008, 10:06:53 PM
Greatly done, HPO !
Remember that it probably won't fly without the A1 generator...
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 27, 2008, 09:09:33 AM
Greatly done, HPO !
Remember that it probably won't fly without the A1 generator...

A big hint  :) ,...but I don't know if I got that much credit with the boss  8)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan September 27, 2008, 04:49:45 PM
I've never lost interest and have always been lurking and following along.  I may not agree with everyone's conclusions regarding the Drones;however, this doesn't mean that I don't respect the hard work that is done by the members of this form.  I attempt to review the data for myself to formulate my own opinions.  This being said, if anything new should arise, I want to know!

It is good that a forum, such as this one, exists where your opinion can be expressed freely and no one will harass or condemn you, but will listen and if possible incorporate your ideas into their own.  This is not always the case with forums that address this phenomena.
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 27, 2008, 06:35:41 PM
A small update,...I've been busy with the decals and the wires on the smaller arms.

A picture of the main arm and one of the smaller arms just after spraypainting a matt clear paint on the decals to protect and seal them.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Firstdecals_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Firstdecals.jpg)

The arms with the wires are one step behind, I will finish them the coming days.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Wires_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Wires.jpg)

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: onthefence September 27, 2008, 07:21:54 PM
HPO, that is looking so beautiful !  :)

This is not a criticism at all to your tireless efforts. I noticed that the Raj and Chad drones have lettering inside the crevices of the thin arms. That lettering is hard to make out, but it is clearly different between each shot:

(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/onthefence55/crevicelettering.jpg)

When are we going to see a picture of you holding up your re-creation, at least for scale ;)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 27, 2008, 07:50:45 PM
HPO, that is looking so beautiful !  :)

This is not a criticism at all to your tireless efforts. I noticed that the Raj and Chad drones have lettering inside the crevices of the thin arms. That lettering is hard to make out, but it is clearly different between each shot:

Thanks onthefence,.....and yes you are right, I don't know why I overlooked that  ??? ,I think I will redo the first thin arm, the other two don't have decals yet, so no problem there. And I wasn't really satisfied with the looks of the decals on the first thinner arm either.


When are we going to see a picture of you holding up your re-creation, at least for scale ;)

Well that would make one bad picture LOL  :D
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: danblast September 28, 2008, 04:57:47 AM
Could you make them hat size so we can wear them on our head?   :o

Great job! amazing how you can engineer this from photos. It's a testimony to the level of research that has gone into this subject.

Go drones!
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: majicbar September 28, 2008, 05:32:47 AM
A drone hat for us drone-heads, sweet.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO September 30, 2008, 08:29:09 PM
Made some different Decals for the thinner arms,....Looks much better this way !

Now it's the other way around, the arms with the wires are now one step ahead.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Correcteddecals_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Correcteddecals.jpg)

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan September 30, 2008, 09:40:27 PM
Excellent work HPO.  Is the Drone really as far fetched as some would have.  I have been looking into some CG aspects and become more amazed with each step.  To ever write the Drones off as mundane CG will be a great mistake.
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 October 01, 2008, 07:47:33 PM
Made some different Decals for the thinner arms,....Looks much better this way !

Nice!  Amazing detail.  What do the decals say?  Are they lap characters?

At this point, HPO, can you reflect on the supposed model hoax theory?  I mean now that you have a good handle on how much work actually goes into building only one of these from scratch (even without all the work to design these things).

Makes me scratch my head when I consider from just the object standpoint alone how much work goes into something like this and for what?  To give the internet something to laugh off?

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: 10538 October 01, 2008, 07:52:16 PM
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Correcteddecals_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Correcteddecals.jpg)

(http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/hoax.jpg) The cgi people made a mistake and did not make the arms the same length!  :o

Sorry, couldn't resist the sarcasm.  ;)

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 01, 2008, 09:40:01 PM



(http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/hoax.jpg) The cgi people made a mistake and did not make the arms the same length!  :o



 ;D ,....funny, when I first looked at the picture on the kamera display I thought the same thing  :o
it's striking what perspective and a kamera lens can do, they are only about 15cm apart, but they are of course of the same lenght.



Made some different Decals for the thinner arms,....Looks much better this way !

Nice!  Amazing detail.  What do the decals say?  Are they lap characters?

At this point, HPO, can you reflect on the supposed model hoax theory?  I mean now that you have a good handle on how much work actually goes into building only one of these from scratch (even without all the work to design these things).

Makes me scratch my head when I consider from just the object standpoint alone how much work goes into something like this and for what?  To give the internet something to laugh off?



Yes they are all Lap characters, and all readable  :) , about the model hoax theory,... when I look at the sharp edges on some of the details on the drone on the photo, when it was a model, it must have been a lot bigger then my drone model of 70cm.
Our machine can produce amazing details, but when sanded and painted, edges lose their sharpness and small details are getting blurry,
even when I use an Airbrush for painting.

But when it was a big model you get other problems, like bending of the arms under their own weight, and of course the costs involved when using strong and stiff enough material.
And like you said, why would someone make such a big model and never take the credits for it?

When it is a hoax, I still would go for a CGI hoax, but again, why ??,  for a coming movie ??, for a laugh ??

And yes it's easier to recreate something then actually design from scratch, but of course not impossible, as a Rapid Prototyper I see new designs every day from car manufacturers or architects or new electronic products, and some of them are very complicated designs.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan October 01, 2008, 09:56:54 PM
From someone who has worked on the CG aspect of the Drones, I will tell you, they are more than CG.  What are they (ALL FOUR DIFFERENT DRONES) I can only guess.  How many times do the naysayers mention FOUR DIFFERENT DRONES (maybe 5) with distinct designs.
L E V I A T H A N
PS:  it is wonderful to never darken the door of OMF or UFO CASEBOOK again.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels October 05, 2008, 12:34:01 AM
Nice model HPO, its finally ready (or not?)!

Well anyway it is great and I cant wait to see the tests made on it.
 ;) :D
Regards
Ark
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 05, 2008, 12:56:56 PM
Nice model HPO, its finally ready (or not?)!

Well yes and no,....It's ready for the big part, but the problems with the antennas still exist.
Some of them are very persistent, after a few hours they are back in their bended form again.

At the moment I'm designing a mould for a new set of antennas, the antennas will then be cast with a better resin in a silicone mould.
The antennas will be build in the objet with a casting rig already attached, so hopefully they will keep their form.

They are really one of the most difficult parts to create (in this scale anyway).

BTW. I didn't make the deadline for the first trade fair, only the item15 was on display, no interesting reactions from the public there.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: majicbar October 06, 2008, 04:33:42 AM
Actually why don't you just make a ring to stabilize the antenna and just stick them through it, we know it is a model and you do not have to make it appear as though it were the real thing. But this shows the photographs are not simply those made from a model with the problems they represent.

As a model maker, I'd look also at going to a metal part to better conform to pattern, as the plastic seems to have a mind to its own.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan October 06, 2008, 04:52:48 AM
Now we have seen difficulty with a CG model and Difficulty with a physical model.  To me that points in a certain direction.  I believe both the CG and physical problems could be overcome, but we have been lead to believe by certain "experts" that this whole affair could be done in a teen's bedroom with about an hour spent on the whole project.
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 06, 2008, 06:55:00 AM
Actually why don't you just make a ring to stabilize the antenna and just stick them through it, we know it is a model and you do not have to make it appear as though it were the real thing. But this shows the photographs are not simply those made from a model with the problems they represent.

As a model maker, I'd look also at going to a metal part to better conform to pattern, as the plastic seems to have a mind to its own.

Hi majicbar,...yes of course I could do that, but this model isn't only for testing purposes, it's also a model to demonstrate the capabilities of our machines and techniques, so I first go through al our capabilities before I give up.

Now we have seen difficulty with a CG model and Difficulty with a physical model.  To me that points in a certain direction.  I believe both the CG and physical problems could be overcome, but we have been lead to believe by certain "experts" that this whole affair could be done in a teen's bedroom with about an hour spent on the whole project.
L E V I A T H A N

I agree with you there,...if hoax, this isn't done in a short period of time by only one person.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: majicbar October 07, 2008, 05:58:55 AM
I don't think I've said so, so far, HPO this is really interesting work you have done and it adds much to the research aspect of the drone saga. THANKS!
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 07, 2008, 07:39:43 AM
Yes you are right you didn't  :),....and thanks.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 October 08, 2008, 06:05:37 PM
@ HPO :
more about your recreation on Ovnis-USA today :
http://ovnis-usa.com/2008/10/08/mercredi-8-octobre/
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 08, 2008, 09:37:58 PM
@ HPO :
more about your recreation on Ovnis-USA today :
http://ovnis-usa.com/2008/10/08/mercredi-8-octobre/

Thanks Nemo !




And a little update up here.

The first steps in making a silicone mould for the antennas.

First, designing a casting rig in Solid Works ( I did put some LAP characters in, just because their nice to look at)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Mould_SW_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Mould_SW.jpg)

Second, build three copies of it in the Objet polyjet.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Antennas_Objet_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Antennas_Objet.jpg)

After cleaning (very carefully this time, and not in the waterjet) a comparison with the Drone model.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Comparison01_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Comparison01-1.jpg)




And last but not the least, a shot from underneath the drone (still with the old antennas).

And no, I did not try to copy the photo yet,... it was a very dangerous exercise the way I made this one  8).
 
I want to make a safe suspension rig before I 'm going to experiment with the light and so on, this photo was made with an external flash, and with a focal length of 25.6mm (16mm x 1,6 ccd sensor correction) and about 1,6 meter from the object.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Underside01_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Underside01.jpg)


-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: nekitamo October 10, 2008, 03:39:05 AM
@ HPO :
more about your recreation on Ovnis-USA today :
http://ovnis-usa.com/2008/10/08/mercredi-8-octobre/

Sorry for being off-topic, but this reminds me of something I wanted to mention to you ever since I started following your ovnis-usa.com page bookmarked with Google translation: how about adding this or some other similar tool somewhere on your page to make it easier for your first-time international readers:

(http://img0.gmodules.com/ig/modules/translatemypage_content/translatemypage.png) (http://www.google.com/ig/directory?synd=open&url=http://www.google.com/ig/modules/translatemypage.xml)

I admit the translation is often far from perfect, but it is usable - and IMO your great summaries of actual UFO topics certainly deserve much wider international public.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 October 10, 2008, 12:24:10 PM
Thanks ! I'll figure out something of this kind by the week-end..
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 10, 2008, 08:16:34 PM

Sorry for being off-topic, but this reminds me of something I wanted to mention to you ever since I started following your ovnis-usa.com page bookmarked with Google translation: how about adding this or some other similar tool somewhere on your page to make it easier for your first-time international readers:

I admit the translation is often far from perfect, but it is usable - and IMO your great summaries of actual UFO topics certainly deserve much wider international public.

You don't need to be sorry, and I agree with you.

You do a great job with your website Didier, it's a great summarise of all the latest UFO news and I'm honoured to be in it, although I don't consider myself as UFO news  8).
I use Yahoos Babelfish for translation (French to English) and it's quit readable.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 October 11, 2008, 03:26:06 PM
Thanks again !
Now there is a multi-translator on my Ovnis-USA blog,
at the bottom of the right side-bar.
But the Google tool would require some improvement.
BTW : it could be improved if only it could benefit from the user's feedback.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 11, 2008, 08:58:55 PM
Thanks again !
Now there is a multi-translator on my Ovnis-USA blog,
at the bottom of the right side-bar.
But the Google tool would require some improvement.
BTW : it could be improved if only it could benefit from the user's feedback.

Works perfectly, thanks.
Maybe one thing though, new visitors probably will not find that bar right away, you have to scroll a lot.



A small update on the antenna mould and some pictures of the suspended drone.


I've painted the rigs and glued them together on a casting tree.
BTW, click on the pictures for bigger, this is also for the previous posts, if somebody didn't notice.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Castingtree01_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/Castingtree01.jpg)

I'm experimenting for a best way to suspend the model, I'm surprised of the balance of the model on the length axis, I only needed two fishing lines (still 0,5mm in diameter, it can be less).
I put one line on the first bars on the main arm, and one on the main ring close besides the little back arm in the direction of the item15.

I put them together on the end of a metal boom, and this is the part that needs improving, two booms a little distance apart from each other will be a lot better, one for each line.
There was only a very light breeze but the drone kept on turning on it's own axis, two booms will prevent that and it is easier to adjust the tilt of the drone to the correct angle.
So I couldn't really do any shadow testing but it's great how the drone looks outside in the fading sunlight.

BTW the antennas are still the old bended ones, one of them even has a broken tip  ::)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend01_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend01.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend02_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend02.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend03_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend03.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend04_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend04.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend05-small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend05.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend06-small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend06.jpg)

-HPO-
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: mgrandin October 11, 2008, 10:23:40 PM

A small update on the antenna mould and some pictures of the suspended drone.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend04_small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend04.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend05-small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend05.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend06-small.jpg) (http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend06.jpg)

-HPO-

Extremely "realistic" pictures, very authentic looking drone !   :o
Some pictures artistically shown from angles/views maybe not shown before.   

It gives a full-size impression.    :)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: elevenaugust October 12, 2008, 11:09:21 AM
Amazing work, HPO! :o
Have you also scheduled to create a model pole??

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 12, 2008, 12:13:15 PM
Yes I have, I was thinking about a wooden scale telephone pole with some small details made on the Objet.
But I haven't made anything yet.

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: EVS October 12, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
Yes I have, I was thinking about a wooden scale telephone pole with some small details made on the Objet.
But I haven't made anything yet.



Oh, please! Your efforts making a replica of a drone is more than enough! A telephonepole is a telephonepole... no need to spend valuable time and money on that!

All that now is needed, is to compare the lighting of the photo's to the model you made.

I am especially pleased with this:

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend06-small.jpg)

As it shows how it responds to the trees or brush.

This one shows that your camera focuses on the drone, making the tree or brush blurry:

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l380/HPO_2008/suspend04_small.jpg)

This shows us, that the camera in use is much more important than the image itself. Not that it's fake or anything like that, it shows us that the original pictures/photo's was taken in a series, and by the same camera. (The camera was in focus at the original takes)

Very good work, HPO - and I'm sure it's appreciated here at the DRT.

I hope I am able to help as I'm not a photo genius, if not - it's still money well spent... :D

EVS
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 12, 2008, 11:19:01 PM
Hi EVS, thanks for your compliments and concerns, but it only did cost me spare time, almost no personal money spend.

About the telephone pole, it's a big part of the lighting questions in PICT16, especially the upper crossbars with the insulators.
I want to know if I get the same results in real life as in CGI.


I am especially pleased with this:

As it shows how it responds to the trees or brush.

This one shows that your camera focuses on the drone, making the tree or brush blurry:


If you are referring to one of the chad photos, the big difference is of course that in my pictures the trees are behind the drone and in the chad in front of the drone.
So in my pictures it is easy for the camera to focus on the drone.

: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: EVS October 12, 2008, 11:35:30 PM
Thank you HPO. I wasn't saying that you shouldn't continue your work...as it is probably the best we have, if no other sightings take place.

And I'm sure there's a lot more competent photo analysts in here than me. (I)  ;)

I was just showing my appreciation of the work you have presented here, as I think it is so very unique.

Please keep on doing what you do, it can only support theories on both sides, and that is a personal compliment on my side.

Thank you for your devoted work,

EVS
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HeAdEk October 13, 2008, 10:53:17 PM
Congratulations HPO  :)
It's really really great.

I want the same for my Christmas daughter.....for me ;D
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Arkhangels October 14, 2008, 02:34:10 AM
OMG this is the worst CGI drone ever!! How can anyone be fooled by those pics?
(sarcasm).....

OMG this is the best drone model ever!!!! How can anyone not believe that?
 ;)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: leviathan October 14, 2008, 03:41:07 AM
If one looks at this very good model of HPO's, then looks at the real Drones and a good CG Model of the Drones, it becomes obvious they are all different.  So just what are the Real Drone photos?  Could they be pictures of a REAL DEVICE THAT IS MUCH LARGER THAN ORIGINALLY ASSUMED?
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HeAdEk October 14, 2008, 10:12:40 AM
You do not know yet but you're certainly an Extra-terrestral  engineer in a previous life  ;D

(http://nsa02.casimages.com/img/2008/10/14/081014111022424142.gif)
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: HPO October 14, 2008, 08:12:27 PM
You do not know yet but you're certainly an Extra-terrestral  engineer in a previous life  ;D


Well actually my father was :D,......... just kidding  8), nice animation.

OMG this is the worst CGI drone ever!! How can anyone be fooled by those pics?
(sarcasm).....


Hehe  ;D , well in a way they are the worst CGI pictures ever of the drone LOL.
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: guerande October 14, 2008, 08:52:52 PM
Hey HPO , was you father a lizard ? Huh ?  ;D ;D ;D I would love to see his tail   ;D ;D ;D
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: Nemo492 October 15, 2008, 05:10:52 PM
Instead of starting a New Thread on OMF,
Marvin has jumped on one of HPO's photos
as to fuel the "raj's pict0016 shadow inconsistancies" topic...


Edited to emphasize the misplacement.
"Neither do men put new wine into old bottles."
: Re: Building a scale model of the 'Raj' drone
: spinnewise October 23, 2008, 09:14:11 PM
Hi HPO!
I sooooo love your work.
My dream would be to have a real world look at it.
I think we are living near to each other. Me living in the "Pott".
Don't know if anyone noticed it before:
In the fotos of the model the same "fading" effect of the antennas is to be seen as in the drone fotos.
This effect was not sufficiantly duplicated by CG before.