Drone Research Team

Drones Research Team - Research => Photo analysis => : leviathan July 05, 2008, 10:46:52 PM

: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: leviathan July 05, 2008, 10:46:52 PM
"Tyâ??s Photoâ??s, why I think I smell smoke."  It is only the smoke of your Illudiom Pew36 Explosive Space Modulator that you smell Marvin DE OMF.  If a zoom was used in the photography a very famous effect is introduced.  This effect was best used in "VERTIGO"  when James Stewart looks down the stair well and in "JAWS" when Roy Snider is on the Beach in a beach chair.  Movement of the camera and changing the zoom will produce a change in the relative sizes between foreground object and background object.  It works in still shots just the same.  Also this does not require any exotic efforts of the REAL Drone in front of the camera.  Now you and the OMFERs enjoy batting this around for at least another YEAR,
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: leviathan July 06, 2008, 06:21:51 PM
It is time for the DRT team members to read between the lines regarding this "Marvin DE OMF".  There is absolutely nothing wrong with the optical relations of the Drone and its surroundings.  The movement discussed, if a real movement of the Drone, comes down heavily on the side of reality instead of CG or physical model.  This is also true of the "Pandas".  WE MAKE CG MODELS, SO WE KNOW.  One of the hardest things to do in CG is to simulate the optical effect between models in a CG environment.

Marvin DE OMF and his henchmen are using a diversion of absurdity to slow the progress being made here.  There are those who are researching the virtual solid idea described by Isaac to use at the nano scale now.  The power to use it at the macro scale is not available they tell us.  The tricks of the OMFERs are all redundant and void, because others are pursuing the information for profit NOW.  Believe this or don't believe this, that is up to you, but you all are far to intelligent and capable to continue this sidetracking by someone who will never accept the reality of the Drones.

Time is moving on and do not be to sure that the luxury of abundant time will continue.  All members of the DRT need to consider what they can personally take away from the Drone/Isaac events for the night comes.  The salvation of the Human Species is not within the hands of the Human Species, but the salvation of the individual is in the hands of that individual.

Consider progress over debate.
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: EVS July 06, 2008, 09:55:46 PM
It is time for the DRT team members to read between the lines regarding this "Marvin DE OMF".  There is absolutely nothing wrong with the optical relations of the Drone and its surroundings.  The movement discussed, if a real movement of the Drone, comes down heavily on the side of reality instead of CG or physical model.  This is also true of the "Pandas".  WE MAKE CG MODELS, SO WE KNOW.  One of the hardest things to do in CG is to simulate the optical effect between models in a CG environment.

Marvin DE OMF and his henchmen are using a diversion of absurdity to slow the progress being made here.  There are those who are researching the virtual solid idea described by Isaac to use at the nano scale now.  The power to use it at the macro scale is not available they tell us.  The tricks of the OMFERs are all redundant and void, because others are pursuing the information for profit NOW.  Believe this or don't believe this, that is up to you, but you all are far to intelligent and capable to continue this sidetracking by someone who will never accept the reality of the Drones.

Time is moving on and do not be to sure that the luxury of abundant time will continue.  All members of the DRT need to consider what they can personally take away from the Drone/Isaac events for the night comes.  The salvation of the Human Species is not within the hands of the Human Species, but the salvation of the individual is in the hands of that individual.

Consider progress over debate.
L E V I A T H A N

The only thing that really would slow this Forum down, is if "Isaac" posted on his website, that this is all a hoax, just to see how gullible the world is today.

To take on the odyssey to try to explain the "Isaac" documents, and the obvious similarities found by excellent investigators during the year (only ONE year) these extraordinary sightings was made public, and make them go away in a blink of an eye, is tremendously overkill. As time has passed, it has not to this day been shown, that this enigma is produced by a single individual, or group, for the benefit of books, movies, games or otherwise viral commercials. No one but "Isaac" has really taken ownership of these revealations....isn't it time to say, that in spite all debunking, the whole issue might just be REAL?

I think we have to consider it true, that we somehow are connected to "Extraterrestrial" beings, once and for all.

Afterall, what do we really know? We still try to figure out what happens after we pass? No one has come back with an unescapable answer, or?

Reality is a way of perceptance, and the more we dig, the more the questions rise. Maybe infinite? Maybe we aren't ment to know? And who said so?

I know I'm far off in this forum, but sometimes I feel sharing my thoughts, and I'm confident, this is the ones I'd be sharing them with!

I wish we meet in the world beyond this window of time called a man's lifetime.

VonStern

Modified for spell errors only
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: Douglas July 06, 2008, 10:38:55 PM

Well stated Erick.

 Not only are we connected to the space aliens.......we are connected to the entire Universe.

The space aliens with these Drones have been taking a closer look at this planet ever since we exploded a nuclear bomb.  This one weapon is a big NO NO in the minds of the space aliens.  Cultures that retain atomic weaons are headed toward total destruction.....often by just their presence on the planet.

Douglas




Time is moving on and do not be to sure that the luxury of abundant time will continue.  All members of the DRT need to consider what they can personally take away from the Drone/Isaac events for the night comes.  The salvation of the Human Species is not within the hands of the Human Species, but the salvation of the individual is in the hands of that individual.

Consider progress over debate.
L E V I A T H A N

The only thing that really would slow this Forum down, is if "Isaac" posted on his website, that this is all a hoax, just to see how gullible the world is today.

I think we have to consider it true, that we somehow are connected to "Extraterrestrial" beings, once and for all.


I know I'm far off in this forum, but sometimes I feel sharing my thoughts, and I'm confident, this is the ones I'd be sharing them with!

I wish we meet in the world beyond this window of time called a man's lifetime.

VonStern

Modified for spell errors only
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: leviathan July 07, 2008, 01:25:53 AM
If he moved further from the trees, he moved further from the drone yet the drone remains constant in size. Even if the drone is huge and farther away, it should still show a change in size as it does in perspective.

Recent statement made at OMF and it is not true.  This depends on the optics of the camera, zoom, auto focus, etc.  It is NOT SOLELY DEPENDANT ON THE MOVEMENT OF THE DRONE.  OMF listen to your friend Mur and move on to some other debunking hobby.  Soon enough and you will see some results from the virtual solid angle.  In that very idea in the Isaac document is a phrase that you have missed which is pregnant with the truth of the documents themselves.  Call in your experts to find it.
L E V I A T H A N
PS: You have the "Alien at the window" to debunk, so it want be as if you have nothing to do, now let the Drones go.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: 10538 July 08, 2008, 06:22:00 PM
Marvin's beef

Not that I want to get into a habit of responding to nitpicking on OMF but this issue has raised some eyebrows so for that reason I'll post my analysis.

The difference ratio of the two stationary objects (foreground branches and the pine trees) between the two photos is the same! Twenty percent (KK objects being 20% larger than LL). This says to me that Ty did not move between shots. It still leaves many variables. Either Ty zoomed out and panned right or it's only a function of cropping by either Ty or Linda (or any combination of the two).

The drone is very close in size. But LL looks to be one or two percent larger depending on where you measure due to tilting. Because the drone is not a stationary object no conclusion of manipulation can be drawn. My guess is the same as it has been. The drone was moving toward Ty between shots.

I think Marvin's problem is that he's got this notion in his head that all three objects are fixed.  That is simply not true.  The drone is a flying object for blankety blank sake.  Also, neither the landscape or the object is a copy from one pic to the other.  Not only are there size differences but perspective and actual differences too.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: leviathan July 08, 2008, 06:33:20 PM
I accept your conclusions as they are perfectly logical and they are totally consistent with how a REAL object in a REAL environment operates.
IC
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: spf33 July 08, 2008, 07:15:50 PM
I think Marvin's problem is that he's got this notion in his head that all three objects are fixed.  That is simply not true.  The drone is a flying object for blankety blank sake. 

ty's report details support your hypothesis as well;

"And it hung there for at least a good minute or so, during which time I got all the pictures I could!  All it really did was rotate.  It was moving very slowly as well but not much activity"

: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: elevenaugust July 08, 2008, 07:38:01 PM
Yes, but we can also consider the hypothesis that the drone doesn't moved at all.
I showed it on OMF with some examples:


I made a little test with my own camera on the landscape around my house:
1- I took two different shoots moving back by 5 feet, at the 3264*2448 shoots size of my camera; and made some measurements of the pylone and of the foreground tree:
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9470/test3xs7.gif)
(http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4061/test4nd9.gif)

2- I resized the two previous images to fit those of Ty at 504*378, with both the same resolution (180.00 pixels/inches)
(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/9045/essai2ug3.gif)
At this resolution, there's NO differences between the pixels numbers of the power pole whereas there are at the max 3264*2448 size.

What we learn at least of this is that:
 We have two things to consider:
1- The distance of the drone
2- The resolution of the pictures.

1- If the drone were closer than the background trees, then, unless it moved, it would have been impossible for it to keep the same size.
2- With a poor resolution like one can see it at Ty's picture (504*300....) a further object can't be resolved at the pixel level like at the better resolution.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: 10538 July 08, 2008, 08:16:25 PM
Hey 11A,

Nice job with the experiment.  But... I also did some experimenting and you have confirmed what I found that led me to say:
This says to me that Ty did not move between shots.
This is the difference between physically moving and zooming or cropping.  When you physically move it is a 3 dimensional thing.  When you zoom or crop you are dealing strictly in the 2D realm.  This is why the more distant power structure size did not decrease when you stepped back and the tree did.  If you would have zoomed out instead of stepping back the power structure size would have decreased by the exact ratio that the tree did.  That is what my analysis post was all about.

Forgot to point out that the foreground tree on the left looks to be closer to the camera than the pine trees on right.  This is an assumption going be the size of the leaves.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: elevenaugust July 08, 2008, 08:25:29 PM
This is why the more distant power structure size did not decrease when you stepped back and the tree did.  If you would have zoomed out instead of stepping back the power structure size would have decreased by the exact ratio that the tree did.  That is what my analysis post was all about.
Hey Numbers! ;D
In fact, the power distant structure did decrease when I stepped back (442.19 instead of 450.01) but ONLY IN THE BIGGER RESOLUTION (3264*2448), it not decrease when the resolution is lower (504*378), like in Ty's picture... Because we can't resolve the pixel level of the power pole at this lower resolution,  like we can do it at the better resolution....
However, it's also possible that the drone moved at the same time and same distance Ty's moved back, but I find it less likely than a resolution/distance explanation.

Edit to add: I can make the same test with the same landscape by zooming and cropping.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: 10538 July 08, 2008, 08:44:27 PM
Yes, still agree.  I'm thinking that the difference was so small that's why it was not as easily detected until enlarged the photos?

Moving camera location = objects of differing distance will have differing size ratios.

Zooming or cropping =  All objects will have an equal size ratio no matter how distant.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: elevenaugust July 08, 2008, 09:15:25 PM
I think that to definitely clear up this thing, we should ask Linda Moulton Howe for the KK and LL pics at High Resolution ;D.
Moreover, it could be interesting to have it to make some good estimation of the size of the drone.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: Endzone July 08, 2008, 09:41:09 PM
I agree, it's time for Linda to release the photos, at least to the DRT if not everyone. Their is no logical reason to keep these photos from us at this point.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: 10538 July 08, 2008, 09:54:51 PM
I agree about releasing the hi rez versions.  But they probably would not help with this issue.  I have said all along that many variables are at work here.  A perfect explanation will likely never be found as it is too complex (maybe this is what Marvin is banking on?).  Camera movement, perspective, zooming and cropping all combine to perplex anybody who attempts to figure it out.  But to say the pics are not possible without hoaxing is foolish.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: elevenaugust July 08, 2008, 10:12:31 PM
That could show us at least if there's a size differences between KK and LL drone size.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: 10538 July 08, 2008, 10:17:18 PM
That could show us at least if there's a size differences between KK and LL drone size.

What if Ty cropped and resized them before sending to Linda?
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: elevenaugust July 08, 2008, 10:38:59 PM
That could show us at least if there's a size differences between KK and LL drone size.

What if Ty cropped and resized them before sending to Linda?
It will not change the difference size estimation (in pixels) between the two shoots, assuming the scale cropping/resizing was the same for all the pictures.
And I just need to know if there's a differences or not, no matter the estimation itself.
If there's a difference, then the drone is really further than the background tree line, like at the position of the pole, in my example, and I was right about the resolution factor..... And the drone is huge. :o
If there's no differences, then we have several possibilities:
All of these propositions are very unlikely, IMHO
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: 10538 July 08, 2008, 11:44:54 PM
(http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/beer.gif)

Oh my!  The beer bottle stays the same size but the other bottles increase!  I guess it's either cgi or I better lay off the beer, eh  ;)

Marvin, drinking beer and staring at gifs will make you see things.

: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: majicbar July 09, 2008, 03:52:27 AM
Measuring the Ty Drone in pictures kk and ll.

Grabbing the measurements of the Ty drone in both pictures from the farthest point of the "panda" on the left side of the drone in the pictures to the farthest point of the arm along the axis on the right side: in kk we get 441,97 and 1386,366, and in ll we get 805,159 and 1795,407.

We will use the Pythagorean Theorem to triangulate the size of the drone along its long axis by determining the hypotenuse of the resultant triangles.

In kk we then take 1385-441, yielding 944, squaring equals 891,136: we take 366-97, yielding 269, squaring equals 72,361. Adding 891,136 and 72,361 we get 963,497 which we then take the square root to yield the distance along the axis in kk as 981.6 pixels, roughly.

in ll we then take 1795-805, yielding 990, squaring equals 980,100: we take 407-159, yielding 248, squaring equals 61,504.
Adding 980,100 and 61504 we get 1,041,604 which we then take the square root to yield the distance along the axis in ll as 1020.6 pixels, roughly.

1,020.6 pixels - 981.6 pixels, a difference of 39 pixels. Longest length of the axis measured such is 1020 pixels, 39 pixels is roughly 4 percent of that. Clearly this is not the same image replicated in both kk and ll.

Any method which says that these are the same image is clearly faulty.

I think marvin is a problem trying to "Ty" down what he is trying to prove, which I think is that: he is saying that he fails to see that the Ty photographs have a natural setting and placement in that setting. I disagree with him, but I find it interesting that he keeps extending the thread and fails to nail it down. In that his effort lacks understanding of the many components that we have identified for him, that is unfortunate.

And now I think I need a beer.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: majicbar July 09, 2008, 04:16:06 AM
I see over on OMF that the DRT has a request in to Linda Moulton Howe at Earthfiles for complete high resolution scans of the Ty prints. I would hope that some arrangement could be made for her using an outside service that could overscan the photographs and perhaps also provide enhanced prints to bring out edge enhancements to sharpen the images, much like leviathan has enhanced the ISAAC image of the anti-gravity device. Perhaps a Lab that does forensic work for PI's. Like the DRT PI's.
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: 10538 July 09, 2008, 04:11:18 PM
It seems Marvin has stumbled onto his own solution.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/instantmartians/Tyback.gif)
This is as accurate a reconstruction as can be done.  You pick an object of reference which should be the farthest fixed object, in this case, the pine trees on the right.  This is basically what Ty saw and shows the movement of the drone.  I like mine a little better though.  I've used trees from LL to fill in KK.

(http://home.comcast.net/~dl1027/files/object/kl.gif)[/quote]
: Re: Ty's Photo
: leviathan July 09, 2008, 04:32:17 PM
IMO, this change in Drone size is due to a slight change in lens focal length or a very slight zoom (not a digital zoom).  This effect would be very difficult to do in a photoshop layer method with out a lot of planning and two (2) different images of the Drone.  When we compose, we compose in a 3D program not a 2D program, so with effort we could get this effect.  This adds even more complexity to the image and IMO is further proof that this series of photos is of some sort of REAL EVENT.
L E V I A T H A N.
: Re: Wasting time
: drewlac July 09, 2008, 09:19:02 PM
Luckily this distraction has not had an effect on the PIs who are still hard at work chasing down two important leads right now.  All I can say is both of them are adding to the legit side and have the potential to go much further.  Unfortunately we have to wait until they are concluded before we can release the info.

This is great news!  As always, I look forward hearing an update from the PIs!!
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: leviathan August 11, 2008, 12:59:53 AM
The Ty photos have no lighting issues.
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: 10538 August 11, 2008, 07:59:01 PM
The Ty photos have no lighting issues.
L E V I A T H A N

I have always wondered about this and thought that the distance of the drone from the camera (as apposed to the distance to the trees) could account for perceived lighting differences (atmosphere haze, higher altitude causing more ambient light).  Do you have any more thoughts on that?

: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: leviathan August 11, 2008, 09:07:55 PM
Yes, we recently built a new model of the Raj Drone and tried various renders with different lighting in Cinema 4D.  The results were so variable that we saw no proof of anything at all.  We once again learned the difficulties of building a CG model of a particular Drone and trying to be very accurate.  If these are CG models, what artist who can accomplish this, would not be able to composite them with proper lighting in a background image!!!  In our attempt to do so, with the Raj model, we never got the chromatic aberration seen in the original.  Now the Ty Drone is orders more complex in design and there is chromatic aberration present just as there should be.  The Drone has an apparent surface that is very complex in geometry and texture and material color.  The internal soft reflections would change with each move of the Drone or clouds or ground refection movements.  All you say is correct including any glare or reflection that might wash across the camera lens from any source in the scene.  No 3D software can take every light and shadow possibility into account in recreating a scene.  Just a simple walk in nature will show you this.  We recently saw a utility pole that seemed to defy the lighting conditions of the area it was in.  On examination it was simply a lighter color on one side than the other from top to bottom.  The overcast lighting made the pole appear to have an unaccounted shadow on the dark side.  It was that the pole was darker in color on one side and that was all.  Aerial perspective and foreshortening come into play in all the Drone photos and in themselves are changed by the reduction of a 3 dimensional reality to a 2 dimensional image.  In the Ty photos, it appears the OPTICAL zoom was used on purpose or by accident and this gave an illusion that the Drone changed size.

To us all these little kinks in the images give rise to their reality, because a CG Artist skilled enough to design and model the Drones would not risk their detection by sloppy rendering.  This shows realism and not fakery to us.  There are just too many factors to rule on the reality or fakery of the Drones by these photos and say it is total proof.
Hope this helps.
L E V I A T H A N
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: elevenaugust August 11, 2008, 09:51:22 PM
Thanks Lev for these very interesting explanations. :)
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: tomi August 11, 2008, 11:03:11 PM
Thanks Lev, a rational assessment for sure :) Cheers!
: Re: Ty's Photo (Marvin smells smoke?)
: Douglas August 12, 2008, 01:57:26 AM
Atmosphere and distance can make a big difference in the color of an object.  The color of an object can vary wildly if it is more distant from the camera or the viewer.

The color black can turn almost to a pale gray at distance.  This is why most all CGI look a little fake because they do not take this into consideration.   Plus, if the object is large,  the color and hue can vary from the front to the back.   

The Ty photos:    all photos of a real object seen over the trees on that fateful day he took those now famous images.  Thank you Ty.  THE most famous photos,  in the public arena,  of an object from an alien civilization ever seen.  IMO.

DOUGLAS

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thanks Lev for these very interesting explanations. :)