Author Topic: New Raj shadow analysis  (Read 33808 times)

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Offline 10538

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New Raj shadow analysis
« on: December 11, 2008, 02:53:34 AM »
Had some debate with Marvin and that caused OTF and I to rethink some of our Raj drone shadow analysis.  We are not through working out all the details but so for this is it.  We were trying figure out how the shadow at the top of the pole was made by the crossbar.

OTF did this:


I liked it and took it a step further, tied it to Pict16 and made this gif:


This re-opens the missing large arm shadow debate.  Could it be on the top side of the torus?  How about the side appendage?  Why does it look darker than in pict17?  Is it due to less sun reflection because of the angle?



Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 01:16:20 AM »
No thoughts?   ???  Anybody?  Don't be bashful.  If you don't like it, please step up and post why.  No hard feelings, promise.  ;)

Online elevenaugust

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 02:29:15 AM »
I agree 100% with this.
There's also Kris' model that is not correct:




OTF was the only one who was able to reproduce perfectly the shadow on this small fin arm.

I don't know how to conciliate these two examples.

Are you ready to fight against the morons on UCB???
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 01:48:19 AM by onthefence »
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Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2008, 02:43:11 AM »
No I don't really feel like arguing over there.  A little back and forth with Marvin is all I was doing but now those who were banned from OMF have moved over along with 1111.  I actually don't mind going around with Marvin because he helps me to think.  Just a little diversion.

Yes I'm trying hard to figure out how the small fin shadow fits into this latest sun angle theory.  That and the large arm shadow.  I have some ideas but it's too early to post them.


Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2008, 06:34:00 PM »
I'm surprised nobody else has chimed in about this yet.

Nekitamo, Spf, HPO, Arkangels and Endzone.  Please comment.  Do you see this angle as feasible?  If not, why?

Offline HPO

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2008, 07:37:08 PM »
Hi 10538,

Well to be honest I'm puzzled about what you think is new in this situation, I thought we all agreed that this is the angle on the pole all along.
And this is also why the dark spot (shadow) on the "item15" is strange amongst other shadow issues.

Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2008, 08:19:32 PM »
Hi HPO,

Thanks for replying.

Well, I guess maybe it's only new to me.  But what we have done is to apply that same agreed sun angle from the pole to the drone and then determine if there are any problems with it.

The 3D naysayers are complaining that the agreed pole sun angle does not match the other drone sun angle.  I'm questioning the popular drone sun angle.  I think the correct drone sun angle may be the same as the agreed pole sun angle.  Look at my gif file.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 08:21:11 PM by 10538 »

Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2008, 08:39:19 PM »
Here's the different drone sun angle possibilities.  The old on top and the new below.




Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 08:48:52 PM »
And this is also why the dark spot (shadow) on the "item15" is strange amongst other shadow issues.

Do you mean this part?


Offline HPO

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2008, 09:23:08 PM »
Yes, that's the part I meant,..I'm still puzzled about the difference between pict 17 and pict 16 when you take the angle on the pole into account, It still looks like a shadow to me.
And it is very dark, I didn't manage to get such a dark shadow on my real model on that part when I looked into the theory that it could be the shadow of the tip of the long arm.
It's there on the photo below but you can hardly see it.



Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2008, 09:44:55 PM »
I'm open to the idea that the dark area on the side of the appendage may not be a shadow. 

BTW,  I think your model drone in the pic needs to be rotated about 10 degrees counter clockwise.  Then try the light though the other fin.

Offline HPO

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2008, 10:16:46 PM »
I'm open to the idea that the dark area on the side of the appendage may not be a shadow. 

BTW,  I think your model drone in the pic needs to be rotated about 10 degrees counter clockwise.  Then try the light though the other fin.

Well yes, it could be something else, but I can't figure out what that may be, you don't see it in pict17, but you do see a shadow in pict15.

I agree the model needs to be rotated, but what I tried in this picture, was to get all the objects with their shadows as close as possible at the same time, I had to compromise a lot on all the objects and shadows to get to this result.
And an important thing is,...the light was a point light with a cone shaped projection, not the parallel light rays of the sun.

Offline onthefence

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2008, 11:15:06 PM »
Wow HPO, that is very close in all respects to the shadows seen in PICT16.  Since we are now dealing with the tiny spaces that let light through, the model precision must be almost exactly like the drone, any inaccuracies will throw that off. Also, any slight tilt will make the light angles appear to be coming from two different places.

You probably already know this, but I did it for myself yesterday, an example of a Sun source of light appearing to come from two locations when one object is tilted. I have tilted the objects similar to my expectations of PICT16. You can see in the bottom right that the light appears to be sourced from two locations!

As for 10538 and the light all coming from one angle, I think he is right, it may all come from that one angle as you have in your photo, and it is possible that slight angular changes in the drone or other objects along with zooming (which would create perspective exaggerations) could account for the rest of the inconsistencies.

While I am here, I will now admit that my cardboard model mistakenly describes the small fin light. I noticed models again displayed at UFOCasebook (Nekitamo) that show this light coming from the slight crack between the next right fin and the torus:


Online elevenaugust

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2008, 12:30:14 PM »
Wow HPO, that is very close in all respects to the shadows seen in PICT16.  Since we are now dealing with the tiny spaces that let light through, the model precision must be almost exactly like the drone, any inaccuracies will throw that off. Also, any slight tilt will make the light angles appear to be coming from two different places.

You probably already know this, but I did it for myself yesterday, an example of a Sun source of light appearing to come from two locations when one object is tilted. I have tilted the objects similar to my expectations of PICT16. You can see in the bottom right that the light appears to be sourced from two locations!

As for 10538 and the light all coming from one angle, I think he is right, it may all come from that one angle as you have in your photo, and it is possible that slight angular changes in the drone or other objects along with zooming (which would create perspective exaggerations) could account for the rest of the inconsistencies.

Forgive my ignorance, but is it possible to have apparent such dual source light in photography??
So if I understand it correctly, the apparent dual source is sort of optical illusion? If so, what could be the cause of it?

 :)

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Offline onthefence

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2008, 02:50:28 PM »
... is it possible to have apparent such dual source light in photography??
So if I understand it correctly, the apparent dual source is sort of optical illusion? If so, what could be the cause of it?
I'm quite sure the same effect is available with a camera since I tried that with a paper and stick and saw the same effect with my eyes. To be more clear I have made a better compilation showing the actual shadow cast direction (grey lines from bulbs) and the apparent light source(s) for each pole. The key to this effect is that one of the planes is titled.



I think the same effect is the cause of concern about one of the Moon landing photos. Notice that the shadow lines seem to converge to a point in the middle of the photo. The cause is a tilted surface for one astronaut.


This next picture only shows the effect of perspective on a flat surface. It is hard to determine the shadow converging lines, but you can clearly see that the sun angle appears to be coming from different parallel lines. This is only due to perspective, and does not fully account for the converging shadow lines that appear in PICT16:


My conclusion is that I personally need a lot more time to understand all the factors at play in PICT16 before drawing a conclusion.