Author Topic: New Raj shadow analysis  (Read 33794 times)

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Offline onthefence

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2009, 01:32:42 AM »
I think the point is that the distance away from the subject affects the amount in the viewscreen.

Here is an exaggeration using the same field of view at different distances from an imaginary pole above. While numbers is likely not as tall as this man, nor Raj likely as low to the ground as this man in his little car, I think this makes a point. It may not be enough explain what is going on though in numbers' image compared to Raj's image though:



Maybe Raj is a Shriner  ;D

Offline nekitamo

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2009, 02:21:52 AM »
I think the point is that the distance away from the subject affects the amount in the viewscreen.

Sure, with greater distance you can have full size of the same object on a viewscreen even using smaller angle of view camera.
Here's a geometrically correct illustration using 55° and 49° angles like in our case - note that red "object" will be of the same (full frame) size in both camera's viewscreens:



However, also note that closer orange "objects" will have different size for each camera - thus, this greater distance trick works only for single distance point, any other closer or further away objects will have different angular size for each camera leading to misalignment of the photographs.

Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2009, 03:50:31 AM »
Perhaps you mean DoF = depth of field or range of sharpness?

Nope,  I know how aperture affects DoF but that is not what I'm talking about.

This is what I'm talking about:
Quote
I have noticed that when I compare shots of the pole I took in the morning with those taken in the afternoon (same focal length), the later (more light) shots appear to have more FoV.
Check it for yourself to see if your results agree with mine.  Use dimageX photos with identical focal length.  I used photos with a default 6.0 focal length.


Offline nekitamo

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2009, 09:04:42 AM »
Is this what you mean, morning/afternoon difference:



Apart from obviously different camera elevation angle, I can't see any noticeable viewing angle size difference between this two shots. Angular sizes of various pole parts also seem to feet nicely, so you probably used very similar position for both versions. I used afternoon version for my analysis because it is inside Raj's image margins and better illustrates my point. Anyway, your observation shouldn't be hard to test... a few photographs of a ruler or bathroom tiles with various light levels should resolve this matter pretty quickly.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 09:05:52 AM by nekitamo »

Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2009, 05:27:24 PM »
Apart from obviously different camera elevation angle, I can't see any noticeable viewing angle size difference between this two shots. Angular sizes of various pole parts also seem to feet nicely, so you probably used very similar position for both versions. I used afternoon version for my analysis because it is inside Raj's image margins and better illustrates my point. Anyway, your observation shouldn't be hard to test... a few photographs of a ruler or bathroom tiles with various light levels should resolve this matter pretty quickly.

Yes.  Measure things like the crossarms and compare.  The afternoon shots are all smaller than the morning shots.  I was standing in the same spot which I had marked.

I guess the only way to be sure is to go back in May and try to duplicate the pics exactly which I will do!  At this point I am not convinced some other camera other than a DimageX was used.


Offline elevenaugust

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2009, 09:00:32 PM »
I just saw Jake's post about the "Moon landing myth"....

He said: ""Myth Busters" reenacts a moon photo-shoot, proving unparalleled shadows can be created by the environment."

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Wym04J_3Ls0&feature=related

Extract:
"......, this shoot was taken in a studio, because the shadows are not parallel. Supposedly, that's something that could only happen with multiple light sources...."

Interesting.

Please everyone take a look at this Mythbusters video and tell me if you see any connection to Raj's shadows....
IPACO, the new tool for photo and video analysis is on-line! www.ipaco.fr

Offline onthefence

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2009, 10:13:06 PM »
Please everyone take a look at this Mythbusters video and tell me if you see any connection to Raj's shadows....
My opinion, different types of shadows.
With the Moon, you can fiddle with landscape to get the right shadows.
With the drone, fiddling is much more difficult with the geometric shapes.

Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2009, 05:25:40 AM »
I think the point is that the distance away from the subject affects the amount in the viewscreen.

Here is an exaggeration using the same field of view at different distances from an imaginary pole above. While numbers is likely not as tall as this man, nor Raj likely as low to the ground as this man in his little car, I think this makes a point. It may not be enough explain what is going on though in numbers' image compared to Raj's image though:

My experiment was not conclusive when I double checked my measurements but I think OTF has a valid possibility here.  I held the camera high above my head while taking the pictures.  About 7 feet off the ground.  Of course I had no fear with no unknown object directly overhead.  Had there been one I think I would have been crouching and the camera would only be about four feet off the ground, maybe lower.

Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2009, 07:49:39 PM »
I was just wondering if somebody (SPf or HPO) would like to try to duplicate in cgi this illustration.  The angles would have to be correct especially note which lower fins the sun is shining through.




Offline HPO

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2009, 11:33:12 PM »
Sorry Numbers, I really haven't got the time at the moment  :(, but I've just send spf the latest drone model with the revisited item15.
Maybe spf can help you out.

Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #70 on: February 03, 2009, 06:34:14 AM »
Sorry Numbers, I really haven't got the time at the moment  :(, but I've just send spf the latest drone model with the revisited item15.
Maybe spf can help you out.

No problem HPO.  I know the feeling.  I've been getting killed at work lately.  My company laid off a bunch of people and the poor saps who are left must take up the slack.

Spf, this is not really a big deal.  I have always wondered about the hoax believers belief that the shadows in the Raj pics are not possible.  I still think it is possible IF the correct angles and perspectives are chosen.  I know it's not an easy job.  It does not need to get done but if either of you are have some free time and would like to work with me on this I would very much appreciate it.  I think I have a good eye but lack the cgi skills.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 06:35:30 AM by 10538 »

Offline spf33

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2009, 03:21:54 AM »
latest hpo model in the scene.
not yet using the now known tilt on the pole - probably won't change the results much.

you can see the calculated sun angle (blue line) been using in the 3ds max daylight system compared to the your red line;



i'm fairly certain the results wont change in significant ways if i match them. i.e. the main paddle casting a shadow onto the torus. 

to make the change in time necessary to change the sun angle would also negate the corroborating results of the pic14 study and throw those shadows from the gutter way off as well.


Offline 10538

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Re: New Raj shadow analysis
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2009, 04:34:11 AM »
you can see the calculated sun angle (blue line) been using in the 3ds max daylight system compared to the your red line;

Awesome Spf.  You went even further than I had hoped, tying in other known data.  This is looking sweet.  Can't wait to see the finished product.


« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 07:02:08 AM by 10538 »