Author Topic: PACL Q4-86 Research Report  (Read 39632 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EVS

  • Administrator
  • Hero Dronie #2
  • **********
  • Posts: 538
  • Karma: +26/-0
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 10:50:20 pm »
Hi spinnewise, good to hear from you again!   :D

Yes, in Denmark we also crossed the 7....at least in the generation before mine...

I think it's wide spread in Europe.

EVS

Offline spinnewise

  • Founding Dronie
  • *****
  • Posts: 119
  • Karma: +19/-0
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2011, 09:34:55 pm »
Hi EVS  :D
I'm a bit short in time. Many things happening in RL. But I feel we might see some new evolvements in the drone-saga.
I have lurked now and then, though.
Yes I think crossing the 7s and Zs is standard all over Europe since old times. Not crossing is a "modern" thing.

The report looks to me like old-fashioned book-print with letters, not modern printer.
Has anybody compared same letters by now? Like all a's or e's or r's?
The overall variety in shape is greater in letters than in computer-print.
further there might be reoccurring flaws in shape on different pages in letter print cause the same letter is reused for another page.
This does not apply to computer-prints.
Just a suggestion for closer investigation.
Would be hard evidence.
Still looking for gorillas

Offline dont mess with the Zohal

  • Newbie Dronie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-7
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2011, 01:02:48 am »
You guys think that's a Z?
hmmmm I always thought it was a 1.
#7128

Offline onthefence

  • Administrator
  • Hero Dronie #3
  • **********
  • Posts: 1048
  • Karma: +50/-0
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2011, 03:17:44 am »
You guys think that's a Z?
hmmmm I always thought it was a 1.
#7128

I think everyone thought it was a 1 (as in #7128) as well. The point was more about the act of crossing certain characters, and the consensus is that this might be a European trait to cross the characters 7 and Z so they are not confused with the characters 1 and 2.

Offline spinnewise

  • Founding Dronie
  • *****
  • Posts: 119
  • Karma: +19/-0
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 08:17:08 pm »
this is what i am talking about:
http://type-truck.com/san-francisco-part-ii-and-beyond/kyle-durrie-moveable-type-type-truck-at-sfcb/

this is what the isaac-report was printed with
and it is provable
Still looking for gorillas

Offline onthefence

  • Administrator
  • Hero Dronie #3
  • **********
  • Posts: 1048
  • Karma: +50/-0
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2011, 09:43:55 pm »
this is what i am talking about:
http://type-truck.com/san-francisco-part-ii-and-beyond/kyle-durrie-moveable-type-type-truck-at-sfcb/
Nice saying in the image :)

Yes, clearly the technology for high quality printing existed before 1980 to print that PACL report. A few other things would be required also; embedded images with borders, and straight lines. And of course those features existed far before 1980 in the printing press industry. Thank you for bringing it up.

I believe that the CARET papers could have easily been constructed and printed using the Xerox Star 8010 computer and a LASER printer in the 1980s.

Some discussion is located here:
  http://droneteam.com/drt/index.php?topic=307.0

From the Wikipedia entry on the Xerox Star"
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star
  "25,000 units were sold"
Was PACL one of them?

At the time, the Xerox 9700 Electronic Printing System was available and printed at 300dpi (well within the quality of the PACL report):
  http://www.digibarn.com/collections/printers/xerox-9700/index.html
 

A summary of the Xerox Star:
  http://www.guidebookgallery.org/articles/thexeroxstararetrospective
  "Laser printing, invented at PARC, ..."

Some videos from the 1980s of the Xerox Star system:
   http://www.digibarn.com/collections/movies/digibarn-tv/gui-movies/xerox/index.html#intro
The first video shows all the features of our modern-day word processor, except that it was available in the 1980s. The only significant difference is the speed of operation.
DigiBarn TV: Xerox Star 8010 and the Professional
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 11:32:38 pm by onthefence »

Offline spinnewise

  • Founding Dronie
  • *****
  • Posts: 119
  • Karma: +19/-0
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2011, 05:55:28 pm »
my point is: if it is letter-set printing, then every single letter on one page has a unique shape, there are no two which have EXACTLY the same shape on the same page.
would that be true for the xerox too?
Still looking for gorillas

Offline onthefence

  • Administrator
  • Hero Dronie #3
  • **********
  • Posts: 1048
  • Karma: +50/-0
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2011, 06:10:28 pm »
my point is: if it is letter-set printing, then every single letter on one page has a unique shape, there are no two which have EXACTLY the same shape on the same page.
would that be true for the xerox too?

No, the LASER printer method should make each similar letter identical. Have you seen any indication that the letters are different in the PACL report?

The Leviathan

  • Guest
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2011, 09:58:12 pm »
I know that the LAP Document could have been produced at the time Isaac said.  The equipment was available and there is no use to argue about it.  I was using such equipment designing elements far more complex than the LAP.  I have communicated with one poster here who had the same experience with the same equipment.  I know therefore that the "experts" on saying that this was impossible are wrong.  This brings into question the "expertise" of many who were skeptical of the drone from the beginning.
L E V I A T H A N

Prosopon

  • Guest
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2011, 12:04:05 am »
my point is: if it is letter-set printing, then every single letter on one page has a unique shape, there are no two which have EXACTLY the same shape on the same page.
would that be true for the xerox too?

No, the LASER printer method should make each similar letter identical. Have you seen any indication that the letters are different in the PACL report?

OTF, was this 'xerox machine' in your opinion also the one likely used to print out the complex curves, tangents, and barcodes we see in the LAP as given to us by Isaac?

The Leviathan

  • Guest
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2011, 12:16:31 am »
I used a program "DOS based" called Drafix and an HP Plotter to produce the most complex curves and special security patterns you can imagine.  There are many ways to have produced those drawings at precisely the time Isaac said they were done.
L to K

Prosopon

  • Guest
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2011, 12:19:19 am »
I know that the LAP Document could have been produced at the time Isaac said.  The equipment was available and there is no use to argue about it.  I was using such equipment designing elements far more complex than the LAP.  I have communicated with one poster here who had the same experience with the same equipment.  I know therefore that the "experts" on saying that this was impossible are wrong.  This brings into question the "expertise" of many who were skeptical of the drone from the beginning.
L E V I A T H A N

L E V I A T H A N, you are absolutely correct in you observation and comments here.

A business associate I worked with in the printing trade - a professional at that - leased one of these monster machines and created all sorts of laser-quality materiel including photo duplication capabilities.

Professional flyers and mailers were easy to construct with a modern quality seen today - and this began - if my memory serves me correctly - in the early 1980's so the 1986 CARAT printing could have indeed originated with this machine at the time claimed.

I know this to be true because I actually touched the machine and was given a sales demo on it's capabilities so I guess you can call me a reliable witness.

Offline onthefence

  • Administrator
  • Hero Dronie #3
  • **********
  • Posts: 1048
  • Karma: +50/-0
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2011, 12:37:46 am »
OTF, was this 'xerox machine' in your opinion also the one likely used to print out the complex curves, tangents, and barcodes we see in the LAP as given to us by Isaac?
IMO, the Xerox LASER printer was likely only used for the letter sized papers in the PACL report.

As Lev mentioned regarding the plotter, at my workplace in the 1980s, I used an HP plotter like this one:



This plotter was fully capable of making the LAP drawing that Isaac presented.

At the time, it was common to work with larger scale copies, then have them photographically reduced for higher resolution if necessary.

The language used by the HP plotter was well documented at that time, and programmers could have written special programs to deal with all the curves in the LAP, or a draughtsman could have used a program similar to Drafix as Lev mentioned.

The Leviathan

  • Guest
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2011, 12:50:36 am »

This is exactly what we did to have very crisp quality.  These images were large and used in "Darkroom" reduction with extremely accurate and fine cameras with very, very excellent lenses.  This is equipment that in some ways was far beyond the capabilities of digital computers.  High resolution film was used for producing printing plates especially for the etching of metal plates for high impact printing.  So you see these printing "experts" who knew so much about how the LAP was produced and said it could not have been produced at the time Isaac stated are WRONG.  There is no debate here at all.  I could have produced it at that time.

L

Offline spinnewise

  • Founding Dronie
  • *****
  • Posts: 119
  • Karma: +19/-0
Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2011, 12:19:19 am »
my point is: if it is letter-set printing, then every single letter on one page has a unique shape, there are no two which have EXACTLY the same shape on the same page.
would that be true for the xerox too?

No, the LASER printer method should make each similar letter identical. Have you seen any indication that the letters are different in the PACL report?

yes, I have.
I have examined the letters on several pages.
e's, a's, r's and t's mainly cause they have the most difficult shapes and are quite frequent.
I have found those differences i was looking for. no two e's on one page are exactly the same shape. there are even small differences in angles.
for evidence i'd propose to make overlays of all e's of one page and such. since the quality of the pics is good this should work.
the same shape may occur on different pages, but not on one and the same page.
this method is btw a way to determine the makers of old books.
Still looking for gorillas