Author Topic: PACL Q4-86 Research Report  (Read 39432 times)

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Prosopon

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2011, 12:50:26 am »
my point is: if it is letter-set printing, then every single letter on one page has a unique shape, there are no two which have EXACTLY the same shape on the same page.
would that be true for the xerox too?

No, the LASER printer method should make each similar letter identical. Have you seen any indication that the letters are different in the PACL report?

yes, I have.
I have examined the letters on several pages.
e's, a's, r's and t's mainly cause they have the most difficult shapes and are quite frequent.
I have found those differences i was looking for. no two e's on one page are exactly the same shape. there are even small differences in angles.
for evidence i'd propose to make overlays of all e's of one page and such. since the quality of the pics is good this should work.
the same shape may occur on different pages, but not on one and the same page.
this method is btw a way to determine the makers of old books.


So that is interesting. Sounds like a painstaking thing to do. Did you use an extreme blowup - pixel count method?

If these same letters or even all the letters, differ slightly from paragraph to page to overall document...

What would that mean exactly?

~P

The Leviathan

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2011, 01:07:45 am »
The HP Plotter draws the letters, it does not print them.  The pen nibs used and their wear or care could cause minor differences.  Sometimes by making the image very large we could refine such on reduction in camera.  Are you saying the LAP was done with hot metal and lockup!  If nothing else at the time there was presstype that came on a transfer sheet.  The idea that there was no equipment to produce the LAP at the time is not correct.  I know because I used such equipment and others in the L E V I A T H A N group are also aware of such equipment.  I believe there is a slight distortion in the LAP as taken from the device.  The expensive plotter I used could produce any distortion fed into it by the CAD program.  Drafix was a DOS based very capable program.
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Offline spinnewise

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2011, 08:31:13 pm »
i used my eyes.
that's why i am asking for one of the cgi experts to do it.
i am not good with that computer-graphics stuff.
this page is a sample of movable type script where you can make the same observations.


you cannot produce two of those movable type letters with the EXACT same shape, not at sensible costs at least.
since one page is set of many individual letters you have a lot to compare
you might find the same shape again on a DIFFERENT page.
which would actually be a confirmation.

wikipedia has some good information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterpress_printing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typesetting
Still looking for gorillas

The Leviathan

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2011, 09:04:14 pm »
I worked early in my Carrier at a printer that had letterpress and lithography.  Do you mean by movable type, individual letters that are locked up by hand in a matrix.  This is not how the LAP was produced.  I am an expert in graphic design and layout and CG, etc.  If you are talking about hot lead type used in a Linotype machine, I can say that is not the way the LAP was done.  Now I am not going to argue the matter, if you choose to believe this is the method used, so be it.
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Offline spinnewise

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2011, 09:19:18 pm »
not the LAP.
that was made with a plotter. i tend to think of a flatbed one, not the one in the pic.
no, the report i speak of. the textbook.

and this is what i mean by movable type:
Still looking for gorillas

Offline TimeTraveler33

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2013, 09:40:27 pm »
There is a digital watermark over the blackened-over text on Page 4 on the third line of the first paragraph of PACL.  The faces are all unique cartoon-like characters.  One of them is Super Mario from the 1980's video game.

Is the watermark placed there from the droneteam? If not then it could be from Photoshop or from the Internet service provider?


Offline 10538

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2013, 07:16:39 pm »
There is a digital watermark over the blackened-over text on Page 4 on the third line of the first paragraph of PACL.  The faces are all unique cartoon-like characters.  One of them is Super Mario from the 1980's video game.

Is the watermark placed there from the droneteam? If not then it could be from Photoshop or from the Internet service provider?
What are you talking about?  What watermark?  Maybe you've been playing too many video games?

Offline majicbar

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2013, 06:50:20 am »
There is a digital watermark over the blackened-over text on Page 4 on the third line of the first paragraph of PACL.  The faces are all unique cartoon-like characters.  One of them is Super Mario from the 1980's video game.

Is the watermark placed there from the droneteam? If not then it could be from Photoshop or from the Internet service provider?
What are you talking about?  What watermark?  Maybe you've been playing too many video games?

TimeTraveler33 said that: There is a digital watermark over the blackened-over text on Page 4 on the third line of the first paragraph of PACL.  The faces are all unique cartoon-like characters.  One of them is Super Mario from the 1980's video game.

Is the watermark placed there from the droneteam? If not then it could be from Photoshop or from the Internet service provider?

So what is the answer, and is this a legitimate question?

In the first post to this thread, Ipsy wrote:

"I thought it would be nice to see this document in a more polished format so I recreated it. onthefence was kind enough to post this on the DRT server, so here's the link."

So the question becomes, is the finding of TimeTraveler33 from the original, or the recreated version of the "document"?

This is I think the original page:
 
http://droneteam.com/history/isaac/pacl-q486-report-p4-fullsize.jpg

Now the claim by TimeTraveler33 is that there are digital watermarks within the darkened, or "redacted" portions of the page.

I do not see these watermarks. Perhaps some enhancement is needed to confirm them. Without such confirmation I think this is an illusion, nothing more.

Offline 10538

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2013, 05:43:22 pm »
My main point I tried to convey with my post was one should not post unsubstantiated claims as fact.  It only amounts to disinformation.  This has always been the problem with the drone subject.  So many ideas coming in from so many people it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.  I think of it as pollution of the core drone story.  My belief is that some of this pollution was done accidentally and a good portion was intentional.


Offline TimeTraveler33

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2013, 05:29:27 pm »
Quote
majicbar - "I do not see these watermarks. Perhaps some enhancement is needed to confirm them. Without such confirmation I think this is an illusion, nothing more."


@majicbar

Decrease the brightness on the computer monitor to more than 50%.  The brightness intensity may be the reason the image is not apparent.  The monitor I am using is a Samsung SyncMaster 2333 with a custom brightness setting to 33.


Offline majicbar

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Re: PACL Q4-86 Research Report
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2013, 05:00:00 am »
Quote
majicbar - "I do not see these watermarks. Perhaps some enhancement is needed to confirm them. Without such confirmation I think this is an illusion, nothing more."


@majicbar

Decrease the brightness on the computer monitor to more than 50%.  The brightness intensity may be the reason the image is not apparent.  The monitor I am using is a Samsung SyncMaster 2333 with a custom brightness setting to 33.

I tried to modify my monitor as you suggested and I did not find any watermark on my monitor. I have a KDS visual sensations 18 inch monitor, although I aspire to having a larger one with greater resolution, it is from late 2001, but has really good photo quality at the settings I use.