Author Topic: Spf33 - May 23rd  (Read 14956 times)

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Offline spf33

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2008, 01:56:47 AM »
It's the one that has the clear shot of the drone.

i dunno, it looks very vertical to me.



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could Stephen, when he realized the drone and focused on it, aligned the camera with it as opposed to the landscape?

i don't think so.  a cursory look at the 3d file, i think steven would have had to moved a 100' at least to the left or right to cause a change in perspective like that.  which also means that for about a 100' to the left or right of steven's camera position the main shaft would have likely also photographed as nearly vertical.



Offline 10538

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2008, 04:16:38 AM »

i dunno, it looks very vertical to me.


Maybe we are talking about two different things.  Here's what I'm seeing.



Here you can see two lines.  The one on the right is the exact center of the drone going directly through the center spike.  The line on the left is a perfectly vertical line from the same starting position at the bottom.  This I believe illustrates that the drone is not perfectly vertical but tilted slightly to the right.  It is a very small angle but none the less still present.


Offline spf33

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2008, 04:59:12 AM »
Here you can see two lines.

i think we are talking about the same thing. 
regardless though, that slight right tilt you are seeing can't be tilted off the center axis by more than a few feet. it doesn't change the fact that the 3d scene resolves to showing the drone as tilted.  and tilted away from the camera in such a way as to cause the center pole to be straight up and down.  but like i said, at this point it just seems curious to me, it doesn't make me doubt the photos or anything.


Offline 10538

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2008, 06:09:26 AM »
Here you can see two lines.

i think we are talking about the same thing. 
regardless though, that slight right tilt you are seeing can't be tilted off the center axis by more than a few feet. it doesn't change the fact that the 3d scene resolves to showing the drone as tilted.  and tilted away from the camera in such a way as to cause the center pole to be straight up and down.  but like i said, at this point it just seems curious to me, it doesn't make me doubt the photos or anything.



Good I'm glad we are in agreement then.  I understand your concern and had the drone been angled directly back from the camera that would be very suspicious.  It is very close but I believe I have illustrated the overall tilt is actually random in relation to the camera. 

I don't think we will ever determine why the drone tilts.  It could possibly have something to do with it's mission.  I don't know how important it is to figure out which photos show a tilted drone.  If we are going to determine photo authentication it may be a better use of our time to look for evidence of compositing or layering.  After we do that we could then determine the actual size of the objects and then decide if models were used. 


Offline spf33

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2008, 05:15:32 AM »

I don't think we will ever determine why the drone tilts.  It could possibly have something to do with it's mission.

could be aligning itself level to what ever surface it's over.  the angle of the tilt needed to match the 3d to the photo is very close to the backside slope angle of the smaller closer hill.

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I don't know how important it is to figure out which photos show a tilted drone.

i certainly didn't start out looking for any tilting of the drone in steven's photo, it was just
something that was required to do in 3d to match the photo perspective.  i don't care if it tilts or not, i just want to make sure the perspective of which ever drone matches the rest of the photo within reason.

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If we are going to determine photo authentication it may be a better use of our time to look for evidence of compositing or layering. 
After we do that we could then determine the actual size of the objects and then decide if models were used. 

i sort of disagree with you here.  evidence of compositing or layering can be removed easily enough. it's one of the more simple and undetectable hoax-hiding aspects to achieve. 

matching the perspective of this specific model, cg or physical, to an existing photo that has imaged thousands of feet requires more ability and knowhow than using an evidence destroying layer of noise in photoshop or rescaling an image to destroy pixel and ccd signatures.

i would wager more eyes have looked for evidence of composting and layering in the drone photos than have looked for correct perspective using known camera, location and distance measurements...







Offline HJ

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2008, 01:27:45 AM »

I don't think we will ever determine why the drone tilts.  It could possibly have something to do with it's mission.

i would wager more eyes have looked for evidence of composting and layering in the drone photos than have looked for correct perspective using known camera, location and distance measurements...

Stepping back from the tilting question and coming at it in a different way, why would it not be logical that the same forces that keep it aloft also move it horizontally? In other words, we tilt the rotors on our helocopters don't we? That redirects the upward pushing force to move the craft horizontally. Our old friends flying saucers have been seen to tilt almost on edge before shooting off...as if redirecting energy in the opposite direction.

As far as your wager, there's no way I'm taking that bet. You're probably correct.

HJ

Offline EVS

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2008, 01:33:44 AM »

I don't think we will ever determine why the drone tilts.  It could possibly have something to do with it's mission.

i would wager more eyes have looked for evidence of composting and layering in the drone photos than have looked for correct perspective using known camera, location and distance measurements...

Stepping back from the tilting question and coming at it in a different way, why would it not be logical that the same forces that keep it aloft also move it horizontally? In other words, we tilt the rotors on our helocopters don't we? That redirects the upward pushing force to move the craft horizontally. Our old friends flying saucers have been seen to tilt almost on edge before shooting off...as if redirecting energy in the opposite direction.

As far as your wager, there's no way I'm taking that bet. You're probably correct.

HJ

Hi HJ, there's another angle here....if the drones are making use of cloaking devices, such as 3d holografic images, the shifting of excactly this would create a different angle in the moment the shutter of the camera closes...known as a double exposure...just my take on this specific point of investigation...the only way to be certain are if the other photo's show the same deviation/distortion...am I right?

--VonStern
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 03:26:31 AM by EVS »

Offline EVS

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2008, 01:53:01 AM »
Besides all that, it's highly unlikely a hoaxer would work the perspective in a photo like this...the crafting of a detail similar would take reallylong time to match, and for what purpose? I for one is not buying that.

There has to be a more specific answer to the detailed photo.

Most likely a photographic known optical phenomenon.

--VonStern
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 02:03:13 AM by EVS »

Offline HJ

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2008, 05:59:02 AM »
Hi VonStern,
   Then, I guess you are saying the camera is seeing a holographic projection differently then the human eye does. That's very speculative IMHO but quite possible. We've all seen videos of TV screens rolling by like the horizontal hold has gone out but were perfectly normal to the human eye. You may have something there. 

Also, setting up the proper perspective is less likely I think for a hoaxer to do but not highly unlikely. The point being that if the very talented and proficient people here can detect an anomaly in perspective, a similiarly talented hoaxer could also have manipulated it in some way. Good to see you here BTW.

HJ
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 06:02:56 AM by HJ »

Offline 10538

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2008, 04:44:13 PM »
Not likely but how about drones reacting to IR coming from a camera's auto-focus system?

Offline nekitamo

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Re: Spf33 - May 23rd
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2008, 08:46:57 PM »
Stephen's camera, like most digital cameras nowdays, uses passive autofocus, the manufacturer calls it "TTL-CT-SIR" (Through-The-Lens Cross-Type Secondary Image Registration) type. In normal conditions, nothing is emitted from the camera and AF sensor uses only light from the scene in front of the lens for focusing. However, in conditions of very low light this camera does use short flash bursts to light the scene for AF sensor, but that is not likely to happen during the day.