Author Topic: "a new perspective" (OMF Topic)  (Read 9080 times)

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Offline Nemo492

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"a new perspective" (OMF Topic)
« on: June 17, 2008, 12:51:53 am »
From Torvald (OMF)



"Look at c. this is object from raj pole. supposedly camera has moved but perspective does not change. same height and width. now look at d which friend rendered in software. movement in camera changes perspective as in real life. information changes. not so in c. c is same. same with e. how could this be? also with lighting. specular highlights do not move. nothing moves in b in reality.

look at a. friend also rendered in software. it looks like we are moving position around pole at first glance. when superimposed wires change position and other changes seen. but look again. all photographs are in reality one photograph used as background. true this is crappy photo but principals same. if done in compositing software results would be even more convincing.

raj photographs fail perspective analysis. in reality you cannot move camera and not have perspective change. it is impossible. this is why i believe second photo blurred. there are more examples in the scene but i feel not necessary to detail each and every one (look at knots in pole next to metal foot stake for example).

this why i tell tridi anaglyphs do not matter. pretty to look at but with no measurments no usable data to be gotten. cannot estimate distance size or anything. nothing more than that tridi. sorry to make upset.

the craft is actually the only thing that moves in the scene. the rest is illusion. this behind what i mean when i say photographs are impossible. so what this mean? it is my conclusion that the photographs submitted by raj are fakes. the two images 16 and 17 fail perspective analysis. the pole was used as a backplate and the craft was composited into scene. this what i believe to be true and have included evidence above to substantiate my claims."
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:04:14 am by Nemo492 »
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Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective"
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2008, 12:53:01 am »
From Nekitamo :

I doubt that this detail deserves this much analysis, but it seems so much simpler to use another image than to manually edit all those little details that make its perspective seem just slightly different. And there's no other explanation except manual editing for the vertical background wire and some other, less noticeable details if we're indeed looking at the same image:



« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 06:08:11 pm by Nemo492 »
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Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective"
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 12:54:00 am »
From Marvin (OMF) :

"So, I am not the only one to see this interesting "compression" of the pole image in pict0017.

I think I see slight perspective differences with the bottom cross bar (due to the tilting)... but I am not sure that I can explain the "compression," then a lack of it, as barrel distortion... if this is shot in the same camera.

From pict0016 to pict0017:

I assume pict0016 was shot, the camera was turned (while remaining in the same spot or with little movement) and pict0017 was shot.

The pole moves from the left side of the photo to the right. This can cause the above change that we see, due to barrel distortion.

The drone moves from the center to the top. This too should also display some distortion... but when compared (like in the stereo comparisons), there isn't any.
"





Maybe this is a clue to the drone being shot in the camera or not. Maybe the experts will jump inâ?¦.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 12:57:14 am by Nemo492 »
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Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective"
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 12:58:01 am »
From Marvin (OMF)

"yes nekitamo i agree. but so many want unequivocal proof so i go into detail. your graphic demonstrates the lack of perspective change beautifully and elegant.

so, we have camera positional change with no change in perspective. this means camera is virtual and background image is same. drone can only be composited in scene. therefore photographs 16 and 17 are fakes.

this evidence definitive. photographs are impossible. case closed.
"
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Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective"
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 12:58:55 am »
From Tomi

"I've been looking this over for a while and I can see that there is a definate perspective change. One pole was taken at closer range than the other, that is really obvious. So, I'm not sure what the point is. Why does superimposing one pole over the other and then showing the perspective change only partially in the example provided, prove anything?"
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Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective"
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2008, 01:01:23 am »
From BigthTuna

"Nekitamo, can you please clarify what your position on this .gif is?
It sounds to me like it most likely is 2 separate photos of the telephone pole and that it would be more trouble to manipulate one photo then it would be to just take 2... Thanks!
"
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Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective"
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2008, 01:03:46 am »
From Tomi :

"Here is a little study I created, it shows the two poles, one flipped for easy comparison. I see a perspective difference, one is closer and more out of focus."


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Offline leviathan

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Re: "a new perspective" (OMF Topic)
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2008, 01:15:49 am »
Quote
so, we have camera positional change with no change in perspective. this means camera is virtual and background image is same. drone can only be composited in scene. therefore photographs 16 and 17 are fakes.

this evidence definitive. photographs are impossible. case closed."

CASED CLOSED, YOU WISH.

In our work we use virtual cameras all the time in 3D programs and they are there to show change in perspective and angle of image as on a real movie set.  The Drone was shot quickly and the result is consistent with that, and far from inconsistent. 
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Offline onthefence

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Re: "a new perspective" (OMF Topic)
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2008, 01:31:05 am »
Quote from: Torvald (OMF)
the pole was used as a backplate and the craft was composited into scene. this what i believe to be true and have included evidence above to substantiate my claims.

Some premature conclusions being jumped to there.

Here are TWO photos of the same pole taken at different rotations just like in the Raj images. As you can see, there is very little or NO perspective because the camera was rotated, not moved from one place to another.



Conclusion: Nothing fake about these images.

The Drone was shot quickly and the result is consistent with that, and far from inconsistent. 
IC

EXACTLY!

Offline 10538

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Re: "a new perspective" (OMF Topic)
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2008, 01:32:21 am »
This is ludicrous.  I think Majicbar said it best.  "Case closed perhaps to a closed mind".  It has already been proven that perspective differences do exist.  But they are very subtle.  Only four seconds elapsed between the two shots.  Most likely Raj did not even take a step but instead merely pivoted his body (at the legs) to the left about 45 degrees.

Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective" (OMF Topic)
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2008, 01:34:40 pm »
From Nekitamo :

"Well, my position is that there's just enough change in perspective for this to be two different photographs, because the alternative (2D transform) would also require extensive editing of many small details, even with lots of blur. I hope you can see that there are many of those, and not just the background wire being the most obvious one?

Also, we have already reached an agreement right here, in this very thread that there is a substantial barrel distortion in both images and the pole is on different side in each of them - so in each shot it is slightly distorted, but in the opposite direction. My animation was done with uncorrected images (only slightly level-adjusted) and you can best notice this distortion if you look at the top of the pole - it seems to "bend" with the movement. As for "compression", IMO it is due to PICT0017 being taken slightly closer to the pole.

And finally, someone mentioned that perhaps tripod was used if there's no parallax - this is not correct, you also get parallax error with common tripods because the axis for no-parallax rotation is not equal to tripod-screw position and differs with each camera and/or lens type used. I've posted the link about this in one of my previous posts, describing how to find camera's entrance pupil (=no-parallax point) and the use of special, adjustable panorama-tripods intended for this purposes.

So, yes, I think we're looking at two different images here. But either way, this is only a small detail compared to some bigger issues with Raj's images already discussed in this and other forums.
"
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Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective" (OMF Topic)
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2008, 01:35:46 pm »
From Marvin (OMF)

"I do not have a pole near me like this... but I did a visual experiment.

The only way to recreate all the attributes that we see from pict0016 to pict0017, is to approach the pole (get closer to it).

As you approach the pole, it will appear to get shorter, the cross bar on the bottom will lift on the left and drop on the right... as we see in the above example. So I have to agree with the DRT on this one... there appears to be a small change in camera position (closer to the pole) and a slight change in perspective... all of which matches what we see in the two photos.

So it is possible....
"
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Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective" (OMF Topic)
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2008, 07:20:42 pm »
From Marvin (OMF)

"This may better show the camera (photographer's) movement..."

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Offline RoH

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Re: "a new perspective" (OMF Topic)
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2008, 04:22:30 pm »

Clouds moving, not the same picture. Great new forum DRT! ;D

Offline Nemo492

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Re: "a new perspective" (OMF Topic)
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 04:41:34 pm »
Welcome RoH !!
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